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November 08, 2025, 09:02:01 am

Author Topic: VCE Methods Question Thread!  (Read 5782478 times)  Share 

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Jenny_2108

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #810 on: August 11, 2012, 07:05:39 pm »
0
yeah, its 2 events/outcomes
Btw, True tears, can you explain for me step by step how they get the formula of general probability density function?
I read the textbook but I dont really get it



brightsky

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #811 on: August 11, 2012, 07:15:49 pm »
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Quote
general probability density function

i don't think there is such a thing...
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Jenny_2108

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #812 on: August 11, 2012, 07:18:52 pm »
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general probability density function

i don't think there is such a thing...

P635 Essential ch18

brightsky

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #813 on: August 11, 2012, 07:36:07 pm »
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general probability density function

i don't think there is such a thing...

P635 Essential ch18

do you mean the pdf for normal distributions? the incredibly complicated one....

f(x) = 1/(o sqrt(2pi)) e^(-1/2((x-u)/o)^2)?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 07:38:46 pm by brightsky »
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TrueTears

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #814 on: August 11, 2012, 07:47:05 pm »
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yeah, its 2 events/outcomes
Btw, True tears, can you explain for me step by step how they get the formula of general probability density function?
I read the textbook but I dont really get it



For normal distributions, the pdf is just a definition, there is no derivation involved really, just how it is defined.
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Jenny_2108

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #815 on: August 11, 2012, 08:08:41 pm »
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yeah, its 2 events/outcomes
Btw, True tears, can you explain for me step by step how they get the formula of general probability density function?
I read the textbook but I dont really get it

For normal distributions, the pdf is just a definition, there is no derivation involved really, just how it is defined.

so we just accept and use it, dont need to understand how its derived?

paulsterio

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #816 on: August 11, 2012, 08:17:36 pm »
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Yes, you just accept it and use it, in fact you don't even use it in methods, you just use normCDF and invNorm :P

monkeywantsabanana

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #817 on: August 11, 2012, 08:18:07 pm »
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Thanks guys, though, I'm using all these formulae but I don't know what I'm actually doing.

In regards to the expected value/mean - I can understand, however, when is variance or standard deviation applicable in an application question? What are you actually doing when you're finding the variance and standard deviation?

I really don't like it when I'm given formulae and am told 'just use it.' I'd appreciate any sort of explanation.

Thanks in advance guys.

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Jenny_2108

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #818 on: August 11, 2012, 08:20:42 pm »
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Thanks guys, though, I'm using all these formulae but I don't know what I'm actually doing.

In regards to the expected value/mean - I can understand, however, when is variance or standard deviation applicable in an application question? What are you actually doing when you're finding the variance and standard deviation?

I really don't like it when I'm given formulae and am told 'just use it.' I'd appreciate any sort of explanation.

Thanks in advance guys.

same here, thats why I'm a bit annoyed with probability. You use formula and the textbook doesnt explain clearly how they get it

TrueTears

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #819 on: August 11, 2012, 09:05:41 pm »
+1
yeah, its 2 events/outcomes
Btw, True tears, can you explain for me step by step how they get the formula of general probability density function?
I read the textbook but I dont really get it

For normal distributions, the pdf is just a definition, there is no derivation involved really, just how it is defined.

so we just accept and use it, dont need to understand how its derived?
Yes, the "formula" is analogous to saying why is y=x^2 is parabola, it just is, it's a definition, and we build things around it, everything needs a starting point, in mathematics, most of the time, (useful) definitions is where we start off and we start finding cool things about what we defined in combination with other definitions.
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brightsky

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #820 on: August 11, 2012, 09:06:24 pm »
+3
basically variance is the average squared deviation from the mean. it's just a random number that tells someone how much a particular data set varies. so by definition, Var(X) = E((X-u)^2), where u is the mean. we can use this to derive the other formula:

Var(X) = E((X-u)^2)
= E(X^2 - 2uX + u^2)
= E(X^2) - E(2uX) + E(u^2)
= E(X^2) - 2u*E(X) + u^2
= E(X^2) - 2u^2 + u^2
= E(X^2) - u^2
= E(X^2) - [E(X)]^2
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TrueTears

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #821 on: August 11, 2012, 09:08:37 pm »
+1
Thanks guys, though, I'm using all these formulae but I don't know what I'm actually doing.

In regards to the expected value/mean - I can understand, however, when is variance or standard deviation applicable in an application question? What are you actually doing when you're finding the variance and standard deviation?

I really don't like it when I'm given formulae and am told 'just use it.' I'd appreciate any sort of explanation.

Thanks in advance guys.
The concepts of Variance/Standard deviation is more on the statistical side of mathematics, what you should know is that the variance expression measures the squared deviations from the mean, there is another concept called the sample variance and it measures the squared deviations from the SAMPLE mean (note the difference between the 2 sentences, one talks about the population of data another talks about a sample/subset of the population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variance#Population_variance_and_sample_variance), however you don't really need to know this and can just take them to be the same in highschool. To "standardize" it back into the data point's original units (be it cm's, temperature, km/hr, no. of babies born per day etc), we take the positive square root of the variance to arrive at the standardisation. For high school purposes, you will not be asked to interpret sd's nor use them for any statistical regression needs, so don't worry and just compute away!

The practical uses of the definitions of standard deviation (and hence variance) are plentiful. We can use them to construct confidence intervals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_interval) when we take a sample of data from a population. We can also use them for approximation of different probability distributions (t distribution approximation of a standard normal), or we can use them to construct estimators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimator) of population parameters. Alot of the terms may be foreign for highschool kids and that's perfectly fine, what you just need to know is that there are alot of applications which rely on the definition of sd and so on. For VCE purposes, you just need to know how to compute it, no need to worry about interpretation as that takes a bit more mathematical maturity to get used to.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 09:16:04 pm by TrueTears »
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TrueTears

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #822 on: August 11, 2012, 09:28:34 pm »
+5
basically variance is the average squared deviation from the mean. it's just a random number that tells someone how much a particular data set varies. so by definition, Var(X) = E((X-u)^2), where u is the mean. we can use this to derive the other formula:
I know I'm being pretty pedantic here, for vce what you have said is perfectly fine, however I just wanted to clarify the use of the word "average" that you used, it is very important to distinguish between an average and an expected value, in general, they are not the same. In fact what you should say is the "variance is the expected value of squared deviations from the mean." In general "average" is not the same as "expected value". If you used the word "average" then your sentence should be "the sample variance is the average squared deviation from the sample mean". Although this doesn't mean much in VCE, but the implications are huge for beyond VCE purposes (which I think you have the mathematical maturity understand ;)). There is a huge difference between sample variance and actual variance (that is, the definition of variance from ). That is, whenever we talk about averages we are always talking about the sample variances, sample means, sample standard deviations, sample medians etc. You may ask, what is a "sample"? What is a "population"?

I will try show you the difference.

Let S denote the population set, that is S could include the income of every household on the planet earth, or the age of every dog in australia and so on.

A sample (or more formally, a random sample http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_sample) is where you take a subset of S, ie, the income of every household in Australia, or the age of every dog in victoria etc.

Now the variance, denoted by implies that we know the actual POPULATION variance, however in reality, we will NEVER know the population variance, it is impossible to survey every household in the world to ask for their income. Thus we often "estimate" the population variance with the sample variance (the correct term here to use is that the sample variance is an ESTIMATOR of the population variance). Thus the best approximation we can arrive at to approximate is from (where s^2 is the conventional notation for sample variance).

Now note the difference

BUT where is the SAMPLE mean (different from the POPULATION mean denoted by ) and n is the sample size

In fact can be shown to be an "biased" estimator of the population variance, thus to correct for this bias we often divide by n-1. So is the sample variance.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 09:30:35 pm by TrueTears »
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Jenny_2108

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #823 on: August 11, 2012, 09:58:44 pm »
0
basically variance is the average squared deviation from the mean. it's just a random number that tells someone how much a particular data set varies. so by definition, Var(X) = E((X-u)^2), where u is the mean. we can use this to derive the other formula:

Var(X) = E((X-u)^2)
= E(X^2 - 2uX + u^2)
= E(X^2) - E(2uX) + E(u^2)
= E(X^2) - 2u*E(X) + u^2
= E(X^2) - 2u^2 + u^2
= E(X^2) - u^2
= E(X^2) - [E(X)]^2

In the exam, can I just use Var(X)= E(X^2) - [E(X)]^2 without expanding as above?

TrueTears

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #824 on: August 11, 2012, 09:59:47 pm »
+1
basically variance is the average squared deviation from the mean. it's just a random number that tells someone how much a particular data set varies. so by definition, Var(X) = E((X-u)^2), where u is the mean. we can use this to derive the other formula:

Var(X) = E((X-u)^2)
= E(X^2 - 2uX + u^2)
= E(X^2) - E(2uX) + E(u^2)
= E(X^2) - 2u*E(X) + u^2
= E(X^2) - 2u^2 + u^2
= E(X^2) - u^2
= E(X^2) - [E(X)]^2

In the exam, can I just use Var(X)= E(X^2) - [E(X)]^2 without expanding as above?
Sure can, what you have above is the more flexible definition.
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