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Author Topic: Drugs and their illegality  (Read 22354 times)  Share 

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Inside Out

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Re: Drugs and their illegality
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2012, 01:30:48 pm »
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Who cares if drugs are legal/illegal. Its peoples choice if they want to use them.

Russ

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Re: Drugs and their illegality
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2012, 03:23:57 pm »
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Quote
Do you say the same thing about McDonald's, because we're taxing that and it's people's choice to eat it?

I didn't get what you meant with the McDonald's part

What you alluded to subsequently.

McDonald's (or the food it represents) is a very common cause of obesity. So yeah, we tax it and profit now but that means nothing in 20 years time when we've got overweight people causing costs to spike and the health care system is struggling with the problem...this is pretty much what happened with HFCS and obesity.

I have absolutely zero doubts that long term use of virtually every drug I can think of is going to dramatically outstrip the immediate tax benefits. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to get relevant evidence or data, the best we can do is extrapolate from similar circumstances and products across the long term. Especially when you look at the current cost of drug related health care problems, I don't see the numbers doing anything but going up.

I had a read of some journal articles and they were all fairly clear that costs are high and may well even be underestimated due to the research methods being used by people measuring them. The most recent estimate was nearly $200 billion in America, I'm trying to find a better one but google scholar/pubmed are being a pain

Turns out the Australian government did a study in '05 (how nice of them) and found at least $7 billion of general social costs due to illicit drug use. I'm excluding "intangible costs" because I don't like that category

Quote
Legalising drugs would end the production of unclean and contaminated product. This in itself could increase safer use and decrease health related issues for any one individual, couldn't it? Decrease the spread of infection through dirty needles etc

Yes - programs like needle exchanges are absolutely fantastic for reducing healthcare problems and saving money etc. Unfortunately, if you're injecting heroin with a clean needle, you're still injecting heroin with all the negatives associated with that (skin popping is seriously ugh etc.). Taking contaminated drugs is worse than taking "pure" drugs, but I'd stop well short of saying that it's going to reverse the money drain.

Quote
Who cares if drugs are legal/illegal. Its peoples choice if they want to use them.

I care, just as you would care if I chose for you to have to send me a percentage of your income every month.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 03:34:24 pm by Russ »

oliverk94

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Re: Drugs and their illegality
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2012, 02:10:00 pm »
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This is why you shouldn't smoke marijuana, or else you'll end up like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrLr03nd4Mk

LOL



Mech

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Re: Drugs and their illegality
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2012, 04:43:34 pm »
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This is why you shouldn't smoke marijuana, or else you'll end up like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrLr03nd4Mk

LOL

Lol, oh man. This is sad and hilarious.
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nubs

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Re: Drugs and their illegality
« Reply #79 on: February 01, 2012, 02:54:32 am »
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I don't want to pay for people to spend their welfare benefits on putting a burden on the healthcare system by spending their time getting high.

well you already are, because there are already a lot of people getting cooked

Quote
Do you say the same thing about McDonald's, because we're taxing that and it's people's choice to eat it?

I didn't get what you meant with the McDonald's part

What you alluded to subsequently.

McDonald's (or the food it represents) is a very common cause of obesity. So yeah, we tax it and profit now but that means nothing in 20 years time when we've got overweight people causing costs to spike and the health care system is struggling with the problem...this is pretty much what happened with HFCS and obesity.
So does that mean you are also in favour of prohibiting the sale and consumption of fast food? So would you want to shut down all the fast food franchises and ban the production of anything considered 'unhealthy'?

If you're not, why one and not the other? Why allow fast food to be produced but be against the manufacture and sale of what are now considered to be illicit drugs?



I have absolutely zero doubts that long term use of virtually every drug I can think of is going to dramatically outstrip the immediate tax benefits.

Isn't that an unsubstantiated claim? Like the one you rightfully accused me of making earlier?


Especially when you look at the current cost of drug related health care problems, I don't see the numbers doing anything but going up.
I agree that they're going to increase, but how can you be so sure that a such a significant rise in use will occur?
How do you know that a rise in use would increase health care costs to the point where the money saved and the money earned from legalising drugs does not meet the increase in money spent on health care costs (due to the rise in use alone - nothing else)

Unfortunately it's almost impossible to get relevant evidence or data, the best we can do is extrapolate from similar circumstances and products across the long term
Like I said earlier, some similar circumstances have indicated that legalising a drug or many drugs may not lead to an increase in use, but rather a decrease.
Although they're not concrete, neither are the similar circumstances which indicate drug legalisation will increase use. So how do decide which ones you base your claims off?


I just read of a study (I didn't read the actual study) conducted by the ONCDP which claims that in 2002, 180.9 billion dollars was the cost of drug abuse in the US. But, this includes the money spent on fighting drugs, the drug war, cleaning up meth labs ($1,900 for each one) etc etc

So that figure would significantly decrease if it only included health care costs alone. But for the sake of this, let's assume that the 180.9 billion dollars was due to only health care costs. This is obviously an extreme over simplification, but you would expect a <50% rise in use to occur if you wanted the increase in health care costs to meet the 83 billion dollars expected to be saved and earned through if drugs were to be legalised.

Quote
In considering the social costs of illicit drug use, the illegal status of these drugs makes an enormous difference (Kleiman, 1992). The consequences of criminalizing transactions in these drugs include the bloody wars between rival drug-dealing organizations, crime by addicts seeking funds for their next fix, and the spread of disease through use of unclean needles, as well as the billions of dollars spent in law-enforcement efforts. Harwood et al. estimated that, in 1992, drug abuse problems incurred a social cost of $97.7 billion.

This study suggests it is 97.7 billion, but it was done 10 years earlier. This one also includes the drug war and law-enforcement endeavours etc. In this situation you'd need the drug use to nearly double

It just doesn't seem like drug use will increase to the point where money spent on health care resulting from an increase in use (not the overall use) will surpass the 83 billion dollars made and saved if the prohibition were to be lifted.

also, the 34.3 billion that makes up the 83 is the estimated figure brought in through tax revenue if drugs were taxed at a similar rate to alcohol and tobacco. The theory is to tax them at a rate which is significantly higher than alcohol or tobacco, so yeah..

I'm not sure how much more I could talk about the economic effect cause like you've said, there really isn't much data and evidence available.

What about mescaline though? What possible increase in health care costs could you expect from legalising mescaline? I really can't find anything that indicates it to be potentially harmful, not even for magic mushrooms. All I can find is that it causes hallucinations, and this on it's own seems to be justification enough for its prohibition?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 02:38:36 am by Nirbaan »
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slothpomba

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Re: Drugs and their illegality
« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2012, 05:46:07 am »
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This is a very complicated issue and its hard to really look at is a single challenge with a single solution. It's more multiple things interwoven together.

I'll deal with marijuana first because its an exception among most of the other drugs as i see it.

Theres a couple of different outcomes here as well. Total illegality with harsh penalties (criminal), make it illegal with minor penalties, make it tolerated or decriminalised to posses weed but not to supply or traffic, make it legal to grow/distribute/traffic and be sold by private individuals or at the very far end let the state (i mean the state as an idea of collective people under a government, rather than Victoria) supply people with it.

So, its definitely not black and white even on the first count.

The USA is often anomalous when you compare it to other western democracies (germany, netherlands, sweden, australia, new zealand, france, ect), i'm sure it comes as no surprise that it sticks out with regards to its drug laws.  They obviously have a lot more states than we do and they're pretty big on giving the states the power to legislate laws, so, we're already in the realm of breaking federal or state law. Most of the time the average guy possessing weed will run into an officer that enforces state law.

It obviously varies from state to state. Their "War on Drugs" which is a relic of a bygone conservative administration obviously has failed and cost millions upon millions of dollars. You have people going to jail or getting a criminal record simply for possessing weed. Thats obviously a game changer for your life and most of the time i think it is way more harsh than it should be. You spend some time in jail which will either screw you up while you're in there, come out a hardened criminal or if it has no effect on you, a criminal record would sure make it hard to find a job and you might have to turn to criminal activity to sustain yourself. Giving "kids" (young adults) criminal records for simply possessing weed is absurd.

I once saw an episode of "Cops", they didn't yet reveal who they were going after but they were very well equipped. Automatic weapons, bullet proof vests, riot shields, ect. They roll up at some random house and ask if so and so is home, the person who answered the door didn't know. They searched the house and found the guy hiding between his mattress and bed i believe. Turns out he was only something like 19 or 20. They kicked in doors and all, messed up the room a fair bit looking for him, now remember they had automatic assault weapons and they were drawn. Not a handgun just sitting in the holster but full on assault rifles.  They handcuffed him and took him outside. The cop was trying to calm him down telling him it wasn't the end of the road but that he *would* go to prison, this is all before any trial. The offense he committed has a mandatory minimum sentence written into the law, its not up to the judge, he has to sentence the kid to hard time no matter what (if he is obviously guilty). What was his crime? He was passing off something as drugs when it wasn't. So, he was selling vitamin tablets and telling people it was ecstasy or something. He wasn't even harming society, its not like he was dealing real life heroin or ecstasy. At worst he was a bit of a dodgy fraud and a conman but nothing worse than you'd get at any kind of dodgy market when you pick up "tommy hellfinger" sunglasses or something. Don't remember the minimum sentence but it was on the order of years.

This might get a bit too philosophical for some people but i'll try be brief when i can.

This is quiet clearly justice gone mad. We really need to take it back to philosophy, what a state is, what a society is, what it means to be a member of a society, why the law exists at all and  lastly how do we decide what should be law and how should we punish?

I think we have to go *all the way* back. For the sake of simplicity i'll try to be as brief as i can once again.

Think about how early humans lived. We didn't always live in large and complex countries as we do now. At the very lowest level we were organised into "bands". Typically under 60 people, almost all of them related by blood in some distance way or by marriage. Often they looked to the elder or a group of elders to make decisions. There were obviously no written laws at such a time and it was more based on custom. In a society this small as well, especially of related people there was really no class distinction or distinction of role in a lot of cases. So, you didn't really have designated hunters, builders, police, farmers, ect. Food was scarce before the discovery of agriculture so almost everyone in a band spent their time harvesting food just out of a need for survival.  Decisions were usually made by consensus as well.

Since a grouping of people like this is so small, you can virtually know what everyone else is doing. You would probably be related to or know everyone fairly personally. Due to these things and the nature of such a grouping, any offenses would likely be offenses against the person rather than against the "state" or the society. So, things like murder for example. There'd be little room for offenses against the collective like graffiti, destruction of community property and anything that doesn't personally affect others in the band, so, smoking cannabis for example wouldn't really harm anyone else. They were very closely knit as well and shared a lot of the same customs. They were bound together very tightly.

Scale it up. After the discovery of agriculture, we had plenty of food. Societies could stay in one place rather than roam around in a nomadic way to hunt and gather. You had so much food that not everyone in a society needed to work all day to simply produce food. This is where you start to see the origin of specialisation in a society. Now that relatively few people can supply the entire society with food, you have room for people to take up actual positions like blacksmith or weaver or witchdoctor. At this point though enforcement of laws would still be done by regular members of society i'd imagine. Also at this point human society evolved to the "tribe" which would be several bands united together (can read more here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe)

At this point, the grouping becomes less strong. You're no longer wholly bound by blood or custom but we still dont really see organised law enforcement.

It's when states emerged that you really see organised and codified laws. From what i've said above i'm sure most can figure out why we need laws like this now. No longer are people bound by exactly the same custom and its impossible to know and see everyone personally. This is really when you become a member of a society. When you decide to join a society, you give up some of your natural freedom (i base this on my belief in social contract theory - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract ). You have to pay taxes to support the state and the state institutions such as public buildings (libraries, roads) and defense (standing army obviously). You also agree to be subject to a common set of laws, the same set of laws like everyone else in society. When you get a state with a lot of people in it, laws are essential to maintaining order and preventing the disintegration of the state.

You cant have people taking other peoples property at will, people have a distinct idea of their own home and own property now. In tribal societies everything was shared. They have discovered "uncontacted people" which haven't made contact with western civilizations until very recently (much like the aboriginals before europeans arrived). In one particular account i heard, the tribesmen just started taking things from the ship of the explorers, they had no concept of private property, everything was collectively owned and shared by the society. On a slightly depressing note i'm fairly sure the explorers just shot them all for that but it serves to illustrate my concept.

You have a distinct notion of "mine". You see the emergence of social classes as well. City states were much less egalitarian (equal, class wise/wealth wise) than contemporary Australia. You had a fairly rich aristocracy which made up a small proportion of society and the poor "peasants" which made up the majority of societies like this. You also need laws to stop the poor simply murdering the rich and taking their property or indeed everyones property. You can't really both be a barbarian in the fashion of constantly taking everything and "might is right"  and be a functioning member of society. The laws are a form of maintaining order, largely through coercion and suppression.

One of the fundamentals of this is wiping out competition. I couldn't simply come up with my own set of laws for my own house and say i'm not subject to the laws of the state anymore. The state cant tolerate alternate codes, you must follow the code of the state if you want to live within the boundaries of that state and not be punished.

According to one idea the state has a "monopoly on violence" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence). It's the only entity which can legally exercise violence to enforce law and order. Its the only entity that should carry out punishments. Law is basically a suppression of your natural state and natural rights. In true nature there are no real laws, you have to clear your mind of all the modern structures that surround you and just think to a simple blank slate, way way back. The state suppresses your natural rights as a method of control, in times gone by to protect the aristocracy mainly but also to maintain society. We see that today as well, the laws exist to maintain the order, integrity and collective morals of a society. So, i can't exercise violence or some other crime onto you because that is the sole right of the state. I can't murder you because thats obviously wrong, it doesn't move society forward and like i said, the state has the sole role over violence. Likewise, i can't simply walk into your house and seize your television (the state legally can though, if they see it so fit) and i can't kidnap you and lock you up legally, yet the state can (prison). If the laws aren't backed by the will of the people, if the people dont accept them as legitimate, you run into big problems (when i say people i mean everyone in the state) [ http://www.iep.utm.edu/law-phil/#SSH1b.ii  - good idea to read this]

As i was saying earlier, this opens us up to new offenses against the state in my view. Things like graffiti, stealing the property of the collective people of the state for your own personal use only, not paying taxes as you are so obliged to contribute to the state, ect. The state now also takes on the role of punishment via enforcement officers and procedures, where as in tribal and band societies it would be carried out by regular members of society.


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slothpomba

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Re: Drugs and their illegality
« Reply #81 on: February 03, 2012, 05:56:13 am »
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Now that we've covered the kind of background, lets go back to what i was saying a little earlier about mandatory sentences. I think they are a fundamentally bad idea. They very much blur the lines between the legislative and the judicial systems which should be separated. Sentencing guidelines are OK but to tell an independent judge, that no matter the facts of the case, he has to give out a minimum punishment is absurd. It is blind to the fact of the case and robs the judge of his independence and discretion. Minimum sentences are usually the promise, a political promise, made by politicians who promise to be "tough on crime". Good old premier Ted in Victoria is an example of this, he brought in several changes and established minimum sentences for a lot of crimes, the article in the brackets discusses this in some detail and its definitely worth a read (It goes into it much more here in the section on "law and order populism" - http://www.cla.asn.au/0805/index.php/articles/articles/prisons-in-victoria-2010).

So, american style mandatory charges are definitely not the way to go. They don't focus on rehabilitation most of the time, they're just punitive punishment. Lets not forget america has a lot of privately owned prisons, for profit prisons, run by corporations. Its in their interests to get more inmates and for their sentences to be longer. Its not in the interests of society as a whole but its in their interests. We cant underestimate the massive amount of lobbying power they must have as well. Be weary of those tough on crime, the politicians job is to legislate, all the things most of society considers bad are already illegal anyway, so its not like we're lacking legislation. Same with teds promise of armed guards at every train station, it'll cost us massive amounts of money and most of the time they'll be trying to fight boredom rather than crime. So, this isn't the way.

Even if the penalties aren't harsh, i think criminalising drug possession at all (especially the softer, less harmful, less addictive drugs like marijuana) is a bad idea. Once you go through prison or get a criminal record you're worse off for it and often, worse off for society as a whole. Prison is also costly as well, America has massively overcrowded prisons partially because of their war on drugs. That article i linked above mentioned it costs $100 000 a year to house a single prisoner in Victoria. That person, who was just possessing weed, no longer contributes to the state through taxes at all and becomes a burden on the state, both in prison and once they get out. Nothing for a small amount, a fine for a larger amount but an amount thats below a level that you could do some serious trafficking at.

If you are trafficking in large quantities of drugs of dependence, you are causing harm to society as a collective, there is no ifs or buts about it. People like this must be punished. Especially things like heroin, they cause harm against a person, they cause harm to the state because heroin users often turn to crime to fund their habit and often neglect their loved ones and Dependants, also they're a drain on the health-care system and all the other machinations of the state. This all goes back to social contract theory. So, people like this should definitely not get off scott free. You are causing harm to a society, you are taking away from a society, they have to be stopped and they have to be punished. All their assets bought with criminal proceedings should become the property of the state and sold to fund the state that they damaged. This is especially true for hard drugs that almost incontrovertibly cause harm.

For cannabis and lesser drugs like ecstasy, i'm not quiet sure. Possession should definitely not be a criminal offense, at least in quantities for personal use. Lets go back to my continuum though: "Total illegality with harsh penalties (criminal), make it illegal with minor penalties, make it tolerated or decriminalised to posses weed but not to supply or traffic, make it legal to grow/distribute/traffic and be sold by private individuals or at the very far end let the state (i mean the state as an idea of collective people under a government, rather than Victoria) supply people with it. "

They don't cause as much physical harm but they are still drugs of dependence. People become dependent on them and spend increasing amounts of cash on them as they would of previously done. This not only affects them but think about their family as well, if the father is spending more money on booze or weed and he's the sole income earner, theres less money for the family overall. The family is worse off because of the fathers dependence on the drug(s), this inflicts harm on the family against their will and i think its our duty as a society to ensure their protection. No kid should have to grow up the child of an addict (to whatever drug).

The people who sell these drugs are the ultimate cause of harm and they do deserve punishment as i've said above.

Now, i can anticipate what some will say (if anyone is still reading up untill this point), legalise it. It'll be cheaper. I prefer the decriminalised approach, when people get fined they still feel the touch of the law and know people are watching them. Strong policing is important, i read a summary of a study (dont remember by who now) that suggested when people know police are active, present and have recieved punishment, even just a fine, they are less likely to commit crime than if the police and the state have almost an invisible presence and it looks like they don't care. If we do legalise it, we run into the problem of who grows it.

If its private individuals we would need extensive quality checks and legislation, whole new departments, inspectors, enforcement agencies, ect. All this would cost the state money, it would cost the collective money. You would recoup some in taxes but ultimately, the state is still losing money because of this. We also must remember that it would still be illegal in many other places, how are we to know if these legal drug dealers (especially things that need to be farmed like coco, cannabis, poppy for heroin) aren't skimming off the top or selling to international crime syndicates. It definitely can happen and i believe it definitely will happen given a large enough network of "farmers". You're giving them a license to be able to legally supply international drug cartels at least some of the time, all on the dime of the state unless the enforcement and oversight is extreme (and highly expensive). It also signals that society thinks its ok or permissible to deal in drugs that cause dependance, which as i said above, ruins lives.

People will say, Ah! It makes the government money though! It's good, it brings in tax. I find it highly ironic these people most of the time tend to be libertarians favouring small governments and low taxes and yet take the chance to speak glowingly about massive agencies, oversight and taking in taxes. We also have to think where these taxes are coming from - people who are buying these drugs of dependence. Sure, some will be casual users but plenty will be dependent on it. This hugely impacts families and the money in the families. If they're spending more and more pay over time to buy drugs, harming their family in the process, i find it grotesque that we should sanction this as a collective people and not only sanction it but take a profit off it. That the state, us the collective people should draw a profit of people who are dependent on such a drug. I personally find that unacceptable that we should do that as a collective people. Just because we can legalise it and make tax off it doesn't make it ok. We could open up the market for assinations, legalise hired murderers and make a profit off it if we really wanted to but should we? There are certain things we should just not endorse as a society then proceed to profit of it as well. Ignoring the whole irony of the fact you're adding more taxes, increasing the range of the state and creating massive new departments which drain tax money, things classical liberals (the best modern person i can think of is ron paul) are against, ignoring that exactly how far do you classical liberals want to take it? What else do you want legalised and want the state to profit off of?

I reject the idea of classical liberalism of small governments and only things that harm people other than the person carrying out the action should be prohibited. John stuart mill is noted for this kind of idea for example: "[T]he sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number is self-protection. The only purpose for which power can rightfully be exercised over any member of a civilised community against his will is to prevent harm to others."

Yes, we should punish transgressions that occur against others but we should also punish transgressions against the collective people and against the state.

Think about gambling for instance. We have legalised gambling, sure, it brings in tax money but we have provided a very easy avenue of access for people to get addicted. This, as i said, is a drain on a persons finances and affects the family and society as a whole. Should we feel happy that we're making money in taxes off people who are addicted problem gamblers? The very gamblers we enabled via legalising gambling? The grotesque irony here is that we then go on to use tax money to try rehabilitate the very problem gamblers we were complicit in creating. If there was no easy venue to gamble, we would have a lot less gamblers. I am sure of this fact.

I am not opposed to gambling but i am opposed to the creation of problem gamblers and all the ills that come with this. I am fine with the state making tax money off casual gamblers, the very rich "whales" and overseas visitors as well. More than fine with that. Recently i was at crown and i started talking to one of the floor managers, he told me that crown employs around 5000 people (which is a plus) and take in 50 million dollars...a day. In losses. He was trying to convince us not to gamble too much, which is pretty weird for a guy who works in a casino but he seemed religious and he could probably realise we were young and didnt go all that often. Nice guy though, gave us gold cards when he was only meant to give us bronze. Thats 50 million dollars a day that the casino makes, all off money people lose.

Most problem gamblers don't hang around casinos though, usually the local pokies, the point remains the same though.

It also creates a problem. The state was doing fine before gambling tax revenue but now they have all this extra money, they find a way to spend it. After awhile they depend on it coming in. Its in the interests of the state and the politicians to keep that money flowing (the government makes massive amounts of money off gambling, on the order of billions of dollars (http://www.theage.com.au/national/gambling-returns-16-billion-20090505-atzt.html). It makes up 1/10th of the revenue of the state of Victoria, its obviously now a vital part of the governments funding (http://www.swinburne.edu.au/chancellery/mediacentre/media-centre/news/2010/10/gambling-revenue-on-the-rise-) , they need it, they've become attached to it. After awhile it will be very hard to wean the state off this and repeal the law that legalises gambling, just like the laws that legalise alcohol. All i mentioned about gambling can be applied to drugs.

People say alcohols legal, why do you support that? Frankly, it doesn't matter if i do or don't. Its too late to change the laws, once you grant the people a freedom like this, its very hard to take it back, especially after it becomes so ingrained in a society. Consuming alcohol is a massive and common place feature of our culture now. Theres no going back.

The same could be said about drugs, once we legalise it, if the experiment fails, we'll reach a point where it will be very hard to change things back to the way they were. We'll have to have massive law and order responses on the order of war on drugs to shut down all the things we previously allowed.

We're looking at this in terms of just law as well but just like i mentioned for alcohol, society plays a huge role. It's now a normal thing amongst almost all of us to go out and have drinks. If it was illegal and wasn't widely accepted, i probably wouldn't go out and find an alcohol dealer. If we allow a thing, we don't only need to think about the present, things aren't static, they do change. People say, if you suddenly legalise weed or cocaine, its not like everyone will go out and suddenly start using it and surveys back that up. This is only the short term though. Overtime, it'll become more and more common places and accepted, just like alcohol. You'll have more and more people using it, more and more people becoming dependent on it, the state being complicit in it, not to mention the effects that it'll have on the public health-care system we all have to fund, the families and personal finances of these people and the inevitable rehab programs the government will have to bankroll on a much larger scale like gamblers help, for the very flames they fanned in the first place. This will happen over a fairly long term, it'll be a generational thing. You'll have weed cafes or cocaine cafes open up and it'll be a common thing, those growing up will be more accepting of it. We then have private industries (just like gambling and alcohol) based upon dealing things of dependence to people. We could then have advertising for marujiana brands on TV and other things like that. Lets not lie, the cool factor and all the advertisement around alcohol makes us want to drink it more. I don't see many of us doing kava for example.

80-90% of people in the OCED countries use alcohol and about 60% use tobacco, both legal and alcohol more socially acceptable. The percentage of people using hard illicit drugs on a regular basis is below 1% and for cannabis (more socially acceptable) its around 1-10%. Prohibition also keeps the costs high due to the risk and expenses needed in producing, smuggling, ect. I saw on hungry beast tonight actually that street drugs have a profit margin thats fairly high, weed had something insane like 1400% profit margin. Young people are especially price sensitive. This is the rationale for having high alcohol taxes and they work. I buy less alcohol, especially if its just for home or something because it costs more. If you look at disadvantaged and aboriginal communties people go straight for the cheap stuff, the goon, because they are price sensitive. Alcohol taxes in australia are messed up though, its not by % of alcohol, its by the class of beverage. Wine is more alcoholic than beer but taxed at a lower % to apparently support the wine industry or something (http://www.theage.com.au/national/tax-shakeup-to-hit-beer-wine-prices-20100116-mdj1.html / http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/fca/subabuse/sub123.pdf ). The same applies to drugs.

I do not find it morally acceptable that we as a collective people should think its ok to extract revenue for the collective from people who are addicted only later to try rehabilitate them.

So, i think we should decriminalise possession, deal out fines for any quantities beyond a couple weeks of personal use and punish the people who sell it with the full force of the law.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 06:33:18 am by kingpomba »

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Mech

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Re: Drugs and their illegality
« Reply #82 on: February 03, 2012, 01:45:17 pm »
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« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 01:51:32 pm by Mech »
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VivaTequila

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Re: Drugs and their illegality
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2012, 09:49:58 pm »
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Wow kingpomba that's a really insightful post

slothpomba

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Re: Drugs and their illegality
« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2012, 03:31:42 pm »
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Haha wow, someone read it. Yeah... i tend to get a bit too philosophical sometimes....

I should of snuck something crazy in there to see if anyone was actually reading

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