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October 22, 2025, 09:06:38 am

Author Topic: When people ask me what my problem with religion is, one answer is not enough  (Read 44118 times)  Share 

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Aurelian

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At ninwa
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You are essentially saying "you are wrong, but I refuse to explain why you are wrong".
Yeah pretty much. There's really no way for me to explain it which would make you understand what I mean... This is why I don't generally enter these debates, because atheists yell at me for not having reasons.
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Quite the contrary, I’d say that in some areas the religious mode of thought is far more reasonable than science, but I’ll allow the debate to develop before elaborating on this.

I'd like to see you explain this.

Qualia n' stuff. Pretty ceebs atm doing that though. I'll send you an actual essay in PM if you want...

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Fundamental misunderstanding of atheism/rationalism. We do not believe that science holds all the answers; far from it. However, I believe that the current state of scientific progress is the best possible explanation we have until evidence arises to the contrary.

Could you please justify your reasoning for particularly that last bit :)

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However, while certain aspects of religions perhaps ought to disappear, the essence of religious thought is utterly essential to humanity. If man is does not embrace, he is doomed.

Why?

Telos and all that jazz. Trololololol. Unfortunately I can't answer that 'why' without explaining quite a lot of other stuff as well... And I think I've filled my quota of tl;dr posts tonight :P

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You've made a lot of blanket statements here and very few actual explanations.

Hmmm I think that's an unfair statement considering I had quite a bit of your kind of reasoning in there, but yeah I'll admit there are a few of them. Ask specific questions and I'd be happy to answer them (if I can succinctly!).
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enwiabe

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There are obvious things we live by (Jesus' sermon on the mount, for example). That doesn't mean we ignore everything else, though, but merely that we take context into account.

How do you know what to observe and what not to observe? Are you claiming you actually know which parts God really wanted you to adhere to? Congrats, you just became god!

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Additionally, how, may I ask, are you quantifying the magnitude of the leaps at play here – and what is your justification that a scientific leap of faith is greater than a religious one? Quite the contrary, I’d say that in some areas the religious mode of thought is far more reasonable than science, but I’ll allow the debate to develop before elaborating on this.
Well, my line of thought was that scientific proofs are in a sense, universal in that it could be repeated elsewhere and still hold consistent (eg. the theory of evolution does not just change depending on location). On the other hand, religious claims can vary according to culture. A christian idea of god differs from that of a norse one. I guess I can't really quantify the leaps but the former point seems a lot more rigorous then the latter.

I'd appreciate an explanation or some resources as I don't have any grounding in philosophy

Scientific theories change and are adapted all the time, and there are certainly different schools in science which hold theories in different lights.  Unless you mean God specifically, in which case this is null, in that the Norse don't even have 'God', they have a bunch of deities (translated into English as 'gods') called Thor, Odin, Loki, etc.
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Aurelian

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Aurelian, there's no reason for me to argue with you. The only reason you argue is for grandeur and for show. You're very self-aggrandising, very pretentious. You make the most ridiculous fluff statements I've ever seen. You're not the kind of person I'm looking to engage with on this matter, because I don't want to get into a mental masturbation contest with you. I have no doubt you'd win easily. :)

Oh wow... I honestly do feel sorry for you =/ You honestly can't see how what you just said is a demonstration of the grossest dogmatism? Not to mention a somewhat immature one as well...

I do object though to your attempting to assume my motivations for debating. I argue only for 'grandeur and show'? I'm not sure how you can really make that claim. Usually when I 'argue', I do so for the sake of Truth. But unfortunately I'm not perfect, and in this instance I just argued because I got angry. I never really intended on convincing anyone of anything.

And for the record, I'm pretty aware that when I argue for my own actual opinions I do look stupid and unreasonable to a good deal of people... So no, not for 'grandeur and show', - I'd be doing a pretty bad job of it if my intention was merely to seem 'rational'!
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shinny

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I'd like to point out that this isn't "God's word" as shinny seems to think it is. It's a letter from Paul to Timothy and these are Paul's guidelines, not God's.

Point taken. Is there a means of defining which parts definitively constitute 'God's word' then? Isn't it all essentially written by hearsay? I imagine that it would be made clear somehow (e.g. like for the Ten Commandments), but I'm just making sure because I'm not the most well informed with it comes to religion to be honest. Thought I'd jump in to this debate to hopefully learn something for once instead of just ignoring another religious debate for once.

There are obvious things we live by (Jesus' sermon on the mount, for example). That doesn't mean we ignore everything else, though, but merely that we take context into account.

But doesn't taking 'context' into account involve one's own reasoning and logic? I don't assume there are Bible verses that can guide the entirety of this step. This is precisely the point I was trying to suggest - that religion is subjectively interpreted through one's own logic, and hence can lead to bad things in the uneducated. But yeh, regarding context, a simple example would be the morality of illegally pirating music. Stealing is wrong according to the Bible, but there's many Christians who would be happy to do this. Often people justify by the fact that the owner of that material isn't really losing anything, as it's digitally replicated and you wouldn't have bought it anyway. You could say this is where context comes in, but I don't imagine there's a definitive way to interpret the Bible such that you could supply an answer whether it's right or wrong in our modern society. Even if you argue that the Bible definitely says to not steal and that's that, well clearly there's others who don't see it the same way. But yeh, once again, I'm happy to be convinced otherwise that religion really can be understood in a universal way.
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nacho

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Why i hate religious debates:

When thread was made we are at point A.
Up until now, we seemed not to have moved past point A..
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Why i hate religious debates:

When thread was made we are at point A.
Up until now, we seemed not to have moved past point A..

And when this thread is locked we will still be at A.

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I'd like to point out that this isn't "God's word" as shinny seems to think it is. It's a letter from Paul to Timothy and these are Paul's guidelines, not God's.

Point taken. Is there a means of defining which parts definitively constitute 'God's word' then? Isn't it all essentially written by hearsay? I imagine that it would be made clear somehow (e.g. like for the Ten Commandments), but I'm just making sure because I'm not the most well informed with it comes to religion to be honest. Thought I'd jump in to this debate to hopefully learn something for once instead of just ignoring another religious debate for once.

Genesis->Exodus->Leviticus->Numbers->Deuteronomy = "God's Word" then further along we have crazies who say "GOD CAME TO ME IN A DREAM AND SAID THIS" (prophets) which makes up a lot of the old testament. As far as I was taught everything after Gospels(Matthew/Mark/Luke/John) are bases for the "construction"/running of the new Christian church that came about after Jesus sent his disciples out and so they were included in the bible in-case anyone wanted to dispute anyone. A lot of the books in the new testament are "letters" to apostles with an outline on how they should teach God's word. Anything in the new testament that is "God's Word" comes from the Gospels where Jesus actually lay down the law and re-wrote most of the old testaments laws.

Disclaimer: I'm not religious I just went to a religious school and this is what I was taught.
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I haven't read what you guys wrote, but this is my gripe against religion.




Just trying to diffuse the tension.

nacho

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Why i hate religious debates:

When thread was made we are at point A.
Up until now, we seemed not to have moved past point A..

And when this thread is locked we will still be at A.
and so the cycle continues on forever until i finally disprove both religion and atheism :)
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shinny

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Genesis->Exodus->Leviticus->Numbers->Deuteronomy = "God's Word"

There's still some pretty crazy stuff even in those though. More so, I don't see how even context affects some of these at all. Example:
Quote from: Leviticus 20:9
For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him.

My personal favourite is one that enwiabe ironically seems to follow
Quote from: Leviticus 19:27
Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
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Mech

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It is not an outright rejection of reason, per se; religion can string premises together in a valid manner, but the gripes most hold is that it lacks any content in its premises. For instance, to make the claim that god is omnipotent and lets the terrible malaise of atrocities and diseases pester the human race seems ineffably cruel. These premises seem so intuitively erroneous, to any perceiving human being, it cannot act as a prominent model to structure society in a humane manner or as a solid foundation for ethics.

The majority of religious believers are holding onto premises that are formally, by the consensus of academics and the most learned of subjects (however dubiously we want to treat the scientific disciplines), to be absolute bunkum. To assert an agent took it upon itself to allow all entities to exist and handpicked the transmission of blatantly defective alleles as an act of benevolence should bring up some qualms about the soundness of these premises. You want to come to the conclusion a deity exists and is benevolent (which you can do by the tool of logic) and then look around at the world you live in. Each permutation of most monotheistic faiths is an attempt at an absolute normative model that threatens people who live in a dynamic reality. It abandons well-supported, rigorously tested and reputable information from being incorporated into people's moral considerations because it proves contrary to the incantations of some addle nomads from Mesopotamia.

The antitheist movement has not been waged against spirituality by all its proponents; for example, Sam Harris practices many rituals associated to Eastern faith and argues that emotional awareness, or spirituality, is a part of the neurobiology of humans. Additionally, people like the vociferous Christopher Hitchens claims that we have this form of need of meaning and value and it can be define as spirituality; however, Richard Dawkins remains seemingly sceptical of such a proposition. Firstly, you are attacking the antitheist movements as being grounded on flaunting or championing reason. This is true in the sense that it believes an empirical dissection of reality leaves the question of an intelligent agent creating all entities to be, at best, deistic (if some form of deity exists, he is indifferent or uncaring; this is in staunch opposition to the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent concoction many extoll). Secondly, many antitheists are aware that violence and the like is inherently a part of the psychology of man; we are apes of sorts with a bigger cerebral cortex and have the ability to keep our history of bloodshed. However, the argument is that the absolutist nature of the model monotheistic faiths preach, is that it subverts reputable consideration of reality by science, denies the origins of man or the biodiversity of the planet and totes a very distinctly controversial substance dualism in regards to an afterlife – this afterlife subordinates the only defensibly existent life we live now; see Nietzsche’s amor fati argument. 

The status of science is an interesting topic. We can tell by Kuhn’s model that it takes a crisis and the weakening of a theory by ad hoc or auxiliary theories to be a sign for the scientific community to re-evaluate the presuppositions of their disciplines. This is all true. Scientific theories are tentative theses; they are there to coincide with the revelation of more details by findings. I do not think science has a telos (an ultimate goal) that is “truth”; I think it seeks to be a problem-solver and to help humanity develop. This is a very evolutionary view of science, which accommodates the possible falsity of all models of science (something religion does not do with their models). Many therefore reject religion because it stunts this problem solving; think of the example of stem cell research and also think about how difficult fundamentalist lobbies protest abortion and try and argue living entities devoid of preference fit into a preference utilitarian model (they assume fertilized eggs want to be alive and assume foetuses want to be born, despite the fact they lack capacity for such at a certain stage of development with re: to foetuses). However, we have to listen to spiels about the sanctity of life as people die from potentially curable diseases, people who fit into the utilitarian preference model our legal system seems to be based on with regards to rights.

I would also like to state that I am not wishing anything against religious folk or even condemning their morality in entirety. I just wish to clarify some of the rationale behind the rejection of religion and why it seems so lacking in coinciding with the evolution of information that science seems to be fulfilling. It also allows for some atrocities to be committed that may not have been committed if this information was considered and the absolutist zeitgeist of nomads from the past abandoned for something a little bit more avant garde than adamic sin, serpentine meddling and wonderfully repressive views of sexuality.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 02:05:37 pm by Mech »
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Genesis->Exodus->Leviticus->Numbers->Deuteronomy = "God's Word"

There's still some pretty crazy stuff even in those though. More so, I don't see how even context affects some of these at all. Example:
Quote from: Leviticus 20:9
For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him.

My personal favourite is one that enwiabe ironically seems to follow
Quote from: Leviticus 19:27
Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
I never said there wasn't ridiculous and crazy stuff in there :P I was just making sure you weren't trying to pass off not-God's Word as God's Word!
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shinny

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Genesis->Exodus->Leviticus->Numbers->Deuteronomy = "God's Word"

There's still some pretty crazy stuff even in those though. More so, I don't see how even context affects some of these at all. Example:
Quote from: Leviticus 20:9
For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him.

My personal favourite is one that enwiabe ironically seems to follow
Quote from: Leviticus 19:27
Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
I never said there wasn't ridiculous and crazy stuff in there :P I was just making sure you weren't trying to pass off not-God's Word as God's Word!

Yeh, wasn't trying to get at you. More so just correcting my previous example with a better example thanks to your correction I guess. My previous post still stands!
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The way Enwiabe dealt with aurelian was a disgustingly poor effort.