Login

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

October 22, 2025, 09:17:18 am

Author Topic: Logic?  (Read 2268 times)  Share 

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

WhoTookMyUsername

  • Guest
Logic?
« on: July 22, 2012, 01:45:28 pm »
0
Is logic independent of the universe?
What came first? Logic or the universe?

Soul_Khan

  • Victorian
  • Forum Obsessive
  • ***
  • Posts: 359
  • Respect: +44
Re: Logic?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2012, 01:56:41 pm »
0
I think logic isn't anything physical to be created. It's like mathematics it's dependent on the physical world for it to exist since abstract numbers by themselves don't really exist in the natural world but we can see maths in physical objects .e.g the number of apples. I believe logic is simply a tool which we can interpret reality with, it's something which is eternal and through cognitive thinking and the disciple of philosophy we came to discover it. So logic existed before the universe. But then again.. not everything in the universe follows the laws of logic.. so yer.

I have no idea what I'm talking though. I'm not a physicist nor a philosopher and haven't really read any books concerning issues such as these, so take my words with a grain of salt.

I must say though, this is a very interesting question to ask - I wish more people could think deeply about issues such as these and ask these types of questions. This will be a good discussion!
2012 ATAR: 52.50
#swag #yolo #basedgod

EvangelionZeta

  • Quintessence of Dust
  • Honorary Moderator
  • ATAR Notes Superstar
  • *******
  • Posts: 2435
  • Respect: +288
Re: Logic?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 09:35:36 pm »
0
Better question - what IS logic? 
---

Finished VCE in 2010 and now teaching professionally. For any inquiries, email me at [email protected].

mark_alec

  • Victorian
  • Part of the furniture
  • *****
  • Posts: 1173
  • Respect: +30
Re: Logic?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 09:40:13 pm »
0

Hutchoo

  • Victorian
  • ATAR Notes Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 2356
  • Mate.
  • Respect: +218
Re: Logic?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 10:58:46 pm »
0

Mao

  • CH41RMN
  • Honorary Moderator
  • Great Wonder of ATAR Notes
  • *******
  • Posts: 9181
  • Respect: +390
  • School: Kambrya College
  • School Grad Year: 2008
Re: Logic?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2012, 11:30:15 pm »
0
I think logic isn't anything physical to be created. It's like mathematics it's dependent on the physical world for it to exist since abstract numbers by themselves don't really exist in the natural world but we can see maths in physical objects .e.g the number of apples. I believe logic is simply a tool which we can interpret reality with, it's something which is eternal and through cognitive thinking and the disciple of philosophy we came to discover it. So logic existed before the universe. But then again.. not everything in the universe follows the laws of logic.. so yer.

I have no idea what I'm talking though. I'm not a physicist nor a philosopher and haven't really read any books concerning issues such as these, so take my words with a grain of salt.

I must say though, this is a very interesting question to ask - I wish more people could think deeply about issues such as these and ask these types of questions. This will be a good discussion!


I would almost agree with you.

The invention of mathematics and logic probably comes from a need to model the physical universe based using abstract principles. Different people have their opinions, this is what I think. But one thing most logicians agree with is that at the very core of logic and mathematics stand a few fundamental definitions, e.g. the concept of "equality" in logic and mathematics is very precisely defined. These fundamental definitions then come together and form a self-consistent system that is very complex (we're not certain if it is infinitely complex yet, see the P=NP problem).

Different fundamental definitions alter the ways the system behaves. I think there have been a few experiments to look at alternative forms of mathematics and logic (Stephen Wolfram is someone who is very passionate in this area). I haven't read too deeply into this myself, so I can't comment on the results. But to give you an analogy, it's like going from normal algebra to matrix algebra, where all of a sudden the definition of multiplication and all that changes, and you end up with a whole new set of rules and so on. Anyhow, when you get a new set of rules, some of these are simply too hard to work with, because they don't resemble anything physical, and it's hard for us to comprehend them. They are nonetheless equally as 'consistent' as conventional mathematics, though they aren't very useful to us (for the reason that they do not resemble the physical universe).

Mathematics and logic is definitely linked to the universe, but I don't think they are part of the physical universe. They are totally abstract frameworks that are rigorously defined, self-consistent and require no interactions with the physical world. Their definition is linked to what we observe in the physical universe, but they do not require a physical world to retain all its properties. It's like how the decimal system is linked to us having 10 fingers, but it is a totally independent concept.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 11:33:55 pm by Mao »
Editor for ATARNotes Chemistry study guides.

VCE 2008 | Monash BSc (Chem., Appl. Math.) 2009-2011 | UoM BScHon (Chem.) 2012 | UoM PhD (Chem.) 2013-2015

JellyDonut

  • charlie sheen of AN
  • Victorian
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 598
  • Respect: +59
Re: Logic?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2012, 10:18:26 pm »
0
Have a read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach

WINNNN. I so wanna get that X_X
http://booko.com.au/books/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=godel%2C+escher%2C+bach&commit=Search&product_type=1

Make it so. And I'm not being a cunt this time round. It is a really, really good book though the incompleteness theorum is still way beyond me.
It's really not that hard to quantify..., but I believe that being raped once is not as bad as being raped five times, even if the one rape was by a gang of people.