Should America Ban Guns

[enwiabe]

sabii, I called the statement dumb. I think ignorance - especially wilful ignorance - ought to be shamed at every turn. He didn't provide a source, he simply said "well I'd estimate that the ratio is 13:1". Based off of what evidence? What possible reason could he have to appoint himself knowledgeable about the ratio of gun crime in the United States to Australia, and simply make up a number? The words to express that sort of ignorance can only be harsh.

That wasn't an opinion, it was a blatant lie.

[sabii]

sabii, gun sport is legal in Australia! I have a mate who goes down to the shooting range every week. But you cannot simply own a gun for no reason at all like you can in America, and the stringent safety checks and regulations keep our gun crime at an extremely low rate.

I was not aware of that, and thank you for letting me know

[EvangelionZeta]

am tempted to go through this thread and delete all the super-long nested quotes...

Sorry about that Nina, would have cleaned them up in my posts but typing from my iPad!

[sabii]

sabii, I called the statement dumb. I think ignorance - especially wilful ignorance - ought to be shamed at every turn.

That wasn't an opinion, it was a blatant lie.

I understand, but maybe he or she may interpret it differently than you and I?

[Surgeon]

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That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard and shows that you clearly do not research your facts. Holy crap.

You think 1 shooting in Australia occurs for every 13 in America? Did you even -bother- to check your facts before pulling that out of your ass?

United states has a gun homicide rate of 4.14 per 100,000 citizens
Australia has a gun homicide rate of 0.44 per 100,000 citizens.

In fact for every 1 gun homicide in Australia, it's 130 in America. 130:1.

think about that for a second.

and now realise why you're wrong. so horribly, horribly wrong.

Okay, I stand corrected. Didn't research the facts as I'm trying to partake in this discussion while studying. In my defence, I never stated what I said were concrete facts. I said "probably".. Pivotal word.

[enwiabe]

sabii, I called the statement dumb. I think ignorance - especially wilful ignorance - ought to be shamed at every turn.

That wasn't an opinion, it was a blatant lie.

I understand, but maybe he or she may interpret it differently than you and I?

This wasn't about an interpretation. He literally just made up the number to suit his argument.

[enwiabe]

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Okay, I stand corrected. Didn't research the facts as I'm trying to partake in this discussion while studying. In my defence, I never stated what I said were concrete facts. I said "probably".. Pivotal word.

Probably means you have a high degree of certainty. You still made up the number, so you were still lying when you said "probably", because you had no way of knowing the degree of probability to which your statement was true. Just admit you were caught making up numbers to bolster your argument and learn a lesson in humility.

[sabii]

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This wasn't about an interpretation. He literally just made up the number to suit his argument.

Probably did but the whole "pull out of your ass", there are other ways to declare the same message? BUt if that's what you think okay than, I dont want to argue or start any sort of debate over this.

[Surgeon]

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Probably means you have a high degree of certainty. You still made up the number, so you were still lying when you said "probably", because you had no way of knowing the degree of probability to which your statement was true. Just admit you were caught making up numbers to bolster your argument and learn a lesson in humility.

Alright, thanks for telling me the meaning of the word "probably". I already told you that I stand corrected and that I didn't research the facts. Is that not enough? Can we please drop this now? If I'm not mistaken, it's against your forum rules to post irrelevant comments in threads, these should be taken to PM, and if I'm not mistaken, this thread is about whether or not America should or should not ban guns.

[ninwa]

Sorry about that Nina, would have cleaned them up in my posts but typing from my iPad!

Q: How do you know someone's an Apple owner...?
A: They will tell you!

<3

Anyway
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[Bhootnike]

I am NOT for it. However my only concern is that many people do follow the law and enjoy hunting! Thousands of people hunt and use the weapon rightfully. Imagine being in a classroom where the teacher agrees to allow you to have free time but becasue of a group of idiots she refuses to allow you free time as a class and thus you are forced to do silent reading. The point is in every situation no matter if it is a classroom or outside, there will be a group of individuals who will not obey the rules and laws, why should those who follow it be punished. To you, maybe, hunting is not a good enough of a reasons, but for many people who do enjoy it believe me it is. Personally I believe that nothing beats the reason that, "everyone should not be punished, over one persons wrong doing:"!

Sabii, like in Australia, the US could employ some law where you get a license do that.
and also if they want to enjoy their hobbies, they could enforce laws in the US and those people who hunt and stuff could get a license.

There are many useless things or 'unnecessary' things that we as humans can survive without, however we still use to use it. E.g. Cars which cause so much pollution. Many accidents occur every year, people break laws by hoon driving and what not. As humans we are not obliged to use the vehicle however it makes our lives much easier, and than yet again, the majority of us do follow the law. In saying this, I don't believe guns or any firearms are any different, if used with bad intentions of breaking law, than OFCOURSE It will be harmful???

My argument isn't to keep it, however to do something else rather than banning it fully!

The point is, we dont hear about it  when people do the right thing.

We hear about when people misuse them, and go on killing sprees and stuff.

Let's be pessimistic for a second..!
A day will come when something terrible will happen.  This has been the case with:
Limited airport security  ---- > 9/11
Guns in australia ----- > port arthur massacre
guns in US  ---> TBC
Looking at the recent events in the past few years, and knowing how the USA is always under constant threat, a pessimist would think that something bad is going to happen.
Only then they'll think, o yeah, maybe guns wasnt a good idea..

I hope nothing like this ever happens,
and one measure the US could take is to enforce stricter laws on guns, if not ban them.
The good reasons, whatever they are, can easily be dealt with. iT could be such that if you get a license, you are permitted to use a gun.

[enwiabe]

sabii, I called the statement dumb. I think ignorance - especially wilful ignorance - ought to be shamed at every turn.

That wasn't an opinion, it was a blatant lie.

I understand, but maybe he or she may interpret it differently than you and I?

This wasn't about an interpretation. He literally just made up the number to suit his argument.

Probably did but the whole "pull out of your ass", there are other ways to declare the same message? BUt if that's what you think okay than, I dont want to argue or start any sort of debate over this.

I think you're making a good point, that in reasoned discussion, civility had ought to be maintained. I'm with you on that. The problem is that reasoned discussion relies on both parties adhering to doing their best to stay within the facts, and not inventing lies to further their case. When this happens, the argument becomes meaningless. It boils down to who can come up with the most feasible or effective lie?

For example, imagine that we're debating the existence of gravity. What if I don't know about magnets, and you surreptitiously use one to hold a falling apple (embedded with a ferrous chip) in suspension?

So it's very frustrating when I'm doing the right thing by the argument and approaching it in an honest manner, and he's taking an axe to the entire process and invalidating the entire argument as a waste of time. Hence, I ridicule such statements. Ignorance has no place in reasoned debates, and ought to be shut down at every opportunity.

[enwiabe]

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Probably means you have a high degree of certainty. You still made up the number, so you were still lying when you said "probably", because you had no way of knowing the degree of probability to which your statement was true. Just admit you were caught making up numbers to bolster your argument and learn a lesson in humility.

Alright, thanks for telling me the meaning of the word "probably". I already told you that I stand corrected and that I didn't research the facts. Is that not enough? Can we please drop this now? If I'm not mistaken, it's against your forum rules to post irrelevant comments in threads, these should be taken to PM, and if I'm not mistaken, this thread is about whether or not America should or should not ban guns.

The thread is also in "rants and debates", where points of order about the debate process can, and should, be raised when appropriate.

[sabii]

mod edit: deleted nested quotes

This wasn't about an interpretation. He literally just made up the number to suit his argument.

Probably did but the whole "pull out of your ass", there are other ways to declare the same message? BUt if that's what you think okay than, I dont want to argue or start any sort of debate over this.

The thread is also in "rants and debates", where points of order about the debate process can, and should, be raised when appropriate.

I understand it can be very frustrating! Maybe he did not apprehend and rethink the consequence or the extent to which it will affect others? I don't no. The intention to me, does not seem harmful! Lets just drop the topic. Both of you guys mentioned good points!

Now back to the topic......hehhe

[sabii]

I am NOT for it. However my only concern is that many people do follow the law and enjoy hunting! Thousands of people hunt and use the weapon rightfully. Imagine being in a classroom where the teacher agrees to allow you to have free time but becasue of a group of idiots she refuses to allow you free time as a class and thus you are forced to do silent reading. The point is in every situation no matter if it is a classroom or outside, there will be a group of individuals who will not obey the rules and laws, why should those who follow it be punished. To you, maybe, hunting is not a good enough of a reasons, but for many people who do enjoy it believe me it is. Personally I believe that nothing beats the reason that, "everyone should not be punished, over one persons wrong doing:"!

Sabii, like in Australia, the US could employ some law where you get a license do that.
and also if they want to enjoy their hobbies, they could enforce laws in the US and those people who hunt and stuff could get a license.

There are many useless things or 'unnecessary' things that we as humans can survive without, however we still use to use it. E.g. Cars which cause so much pollution. Many accidents occur every year, people break laws by hoon driving and what not. As humans we are not obliged to use the vehicle however it makes our lives much easier, and than yet again, the majority of us do follow the law. In saying this, I don't believe guns or any firearms are any different, if used with bad intentions of breaking law, than OFCOURSE It will be harmful???

My argument isn't to keep it, however to do something else rather than banning it fully!

The point is, we dont hear about it  when people do the right thing.

We hear about when people misuse them, and go on killing sprees and stuff.

Let's be pessimistic for a second..!
A day will come when something terrible will happen.  This has been the case with:
Limited airport security  ---- > 9/11
Guns in australia ----- > port arthur massacre
guns in US  ---> TBC
Looking at the recent events in the past few years, and knowing how the USA is always under constant threat, a pessimist would think that something bad is going to happen.
Only then they'll think, o yeah, maybe guns wasnt a good idea..

I hope nothing like this ever happens,
and one measure the US could take is to enforce stricter laws on guns, if not ban them.
The good reasons, whatever they are, can easily be dealt with. iT could be such that if you get a license, you are permitted to use a gun.

Sorry but I think someone already argued that and I have replied and agreed to an extent to some people, e.g. enwibee. I honestly cant be bothered restating my opinion other than declaring, yes the gun can be bad and the laws should outline that of Australias!