[SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal

[pi]

By that logic, all the nations where homosexuality is accepted / not reviled (such as Australia) should have a high rate of AIDS infections. Which is obviously not true

The first notable cases of AIDS appeared in the 60s and 70s whilst the first case of AIDS in Australia occurred in 1982. Many factors need to also be considered such as relative geographic isolation and the improvement of awareness of the condition before cases were detected in the 10-20 year gap.

Finally, your point about AIDS is... I have no words. I just don't. You 1) do not understand how AIDS came to be and 2) have no idea about the effects social stigma on homosexual sex caused people to have anonymous and unsafe sex.

Actually, I do have some idea of both points. What I suggested is purely hypothetical, a "what if" the Church didn't advocate against homosexuality. It is not unreasonable to assume in such a hypothetical that without such advocation (and to repeat, I do NOT agree with it) that there would have been more unsafe homosexual practice during that INITIAL period (especially given the quality of contraception at the time - 1960s).
 


This was an edit I made on my previous post btw:

edit: I haven't provided any research in this (but who can in such hypotheticals? I mean you can argue for days about the "what ifs" regarding the non-existence of the Church...), but to take an example, I believe there would be more people like this if it wasn't for the Church http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ga%C3%ABtan_Dugas. Note that this is ONLY in reference to the INITIAL spread, which was nearly all homosexual.

[enwiabe]

enwiable, what are your thoughts on a deistic god - a god who created the universe but let it go its course - a god who hasn't revealed himself to a bunch of desert nomads - a god who does not care about human affairs?

My thoughts are who cares about such mindless speculation? It achieves virtually nothing. At best, it can be entertaining in terms of culture (e.g. literature, sci-fi etc.) It can also provide a jumping-off point for investigating the truth. However, you currently have no -possible- way of determining its veracity or not. And simply guessing that that is the case is intellectual laziness.

My thoughts are about determining the truth, whatever that is, and reserving my judgment for when the evidence comes in. And right now, we do not have a lick of it. And anyone claiming to have it is a charlatan and a liar.

We don't even know what caused our abiogenesis. For all we know, super-advanced aliens came and seeded this planet with life. But that's just imagination. And while it is certainly enjoyable to consider the theories, and to posit them, committing to any of them at this point in time is delusion.

[thushan]

Lemme try and remember.

With all due respect to religion, this is what happened:

I was about...10 or 11 years old. Very impressionable. And the Jehovah's Witnesses kept talking to me since I was 8 on the front door. One day, whilst reading the Mormon Bible, I came across something really scary - something to the effect that you should cut yourself and draw blood if you want God's forgiveness. I was like wtf and told my sister.

She was like to me - "religion is bullshit, do you have any proof god exists? does god answer all your prayers?" etc. Then I thought to myself "Hold on...yeah...religion is bullshit."

And I was an instant atheist.

That was my thought process - I say this with all due respect to religion.

You should commit to further inquiry on religion, because to be honest with you, an experience that you had when you were 10 shouldn't still be a driving force to your atheism (if it is)

What I don't understand in this whole god debate, is why do people make the assumption that you only have a choice between religion and atheism, because clearly you can be a deist or a theist without believing in religion (the scriptures, rituals, and traditions)

enwiable, what are your thoughts on a deistic god - a god who created the universe but let it go to its own course - a god who hasn't revealed himself to a bunch of desert nomads - a god who does not care about human affairs?

When I say atheist, I am talking about a god to whom you pray and seek favours from, or ask for forgiveness when you sin.

A god who "created the universe then stepped back" or one who "exercises some control of the universe" is theoretically possible, but immaterial and irrelevant to our daily lives as laymen.

[enwiabe]

By that logic, all the nations where homosexuality is accepted / not reviled (such as Australia) should have a high rate of AIDS infections. Which is obviously not true

The first notable cases of AIDS appeared in the 60s and 70s whilst the first case of AIDS in Australia occurred in 1982. Many factors need to also be considered such as relative geographic isolation and the improvement of awareness of the condition before cases were detected in the 10-20 year gap.

Finally, your point about AIDS is... I have no words. I just don't. You 1) do not understand how AIDS came to be and 2) have no idea about the effects social stigma on homosexual sex caused people to have anonymous and unsafe sex.

Actually, I do have some idea of both points. What I suggested is purely hypothetical, a "what if" the Church didn't advocate against homosexuality. It is not unreasonable to assume in such a hypothetical that without such advocation (and to repeat, I do NOT agree with it) that there would have been more unsafe homosexual practice during that INITIAL period (especially given the quality of contraception at the time - 1960s).
 

My point, however, was not hypothetical. Condoms reduce the transmission of AIDS by 80%. We know categorically that the catholic church accelerated the AIDS epidemic by denying condoms. And that 80% figure gets thoroughly compounded when you actually consider the exponential nature of epidemics.

[Soul_Khan]

enwiable, what are your thoughts on a deistic god - a god who created the universe but let it go its course - a god who hasn't revealed himself to a bunch of desert nomads - a god who does not care about human affairs?

My thoughts are who cares about such mindless speculation? It achieves nothing. You have no -possible- way of determining its veracity or not. And simply guessing that that is the case is intellectual laziness.

My thoughts are about determining the truth, whatever that is, and reserving my judgment for when the evidence comes in. And right now, we do not have a lick of it. And anyone claiming to have it is a charlatan and a liar.

We don't even know what caused our abiogenesis. For all we know, super-advanced aliens came and seeded this planet with life. But that's just imagination. And while it is certainly enjoyable to consider the theories, and to posit them, committing to any of them at this point in time is delusion.

What type of evidence are looking for? Physical evidence of god?

Why can't we make deductions about what the possible cause of the universe could be, through what that being has created (i.e. the universe)?

I'm not arguing for theism btw, I'm just trying to challenge my own views.

[abeybaby]

1) as we've all said many times over, no one believes you shouldnt be able to come out and say "I think you're wrong - here's why", so that first point doesnt need any response because we both agree - I think we differ in that I think its important to be polite about it.

2) afaik, we haven't been over this, and i plainly need to tell you, that you were impolite, you were rude, and you did throw personal attacks. I don't think we'll agree on this, so best to agree to disagree.

3) who said the divine word of God is easy to live by? It most certainly is not - yes, if you followed it perfectly, you would be a perfect person (imo), and thats by no means easy.

4) of course religion is unverifiable! its only anecdotally verifiable - whether or not you accept that as evidence is up to you, but can it be objectively verified? the closest you can get is videos and images of saints appearing - which i wouldnt really call "proof", but no one is attempting to prove it anyway. and where are you getting this stone gay people from? if its from the old testament (which it almost certainly will be), then we've already been through that.

5)

from a purely christian perspective, abortion is wrong. i dont think its possible to argue the opposite, and i find this to be true in many other moral cases.

why are you saying things that you know are wrong? i CLEARLY didnt say that religious arguments justify social laws.

6) i think this would be a good time to tell you that I'm not catholic, im coptic. I can't speak for catholicism, all i can tell you is that i am most certainly not ashamed of my church - it has been the victim of bloodshed for its entire history, and has no blood on its hands.

7) see above

[abeybaby]

Lemme try and remember.

With all due respect to religion, this is what happened:

I was about...10 or 11 years old. Very impressionable. And the Jehovah's Witnesses kept talking to me since I was 8 on the front door. One day, whilst reading the Mormon Bible, I came across something really scary - something to the effect that you should cut yourself and draw blood if you want God's forgiveness. I was like wtf and told my sister.

She was like to me - "religion is bullshit, do you have any proof god exists? does god answer all your prayers?" etc. Then I thought to myself "Hold on...yeah...religion is bullshit."

And I was an instant atheist.

That was my thought process - I say this with all due respect to religion.

You should commit to further inquiry on religion, because to be honest with you, an experience that you had when you were 10 shouldn't still be a driving force to your atheism (if it is)

What I don't understand in this whole god debate, is why do people make the assumption that you only have a choice between religion and atheism, because clearly you can be a deist or a theist without believing in religion (the scriptures, rituals, and traditions)

enwiable, what are your thoughts on a deistic god - a god who created the universe but let it go to its own course - a god who hasn't revealed himself to a bunch of desert nomads - a god who does not care about human affairs?

When I say atheist, I am talking about a god to whom you pray and seek favours from, or ask for forgiveness when you sin.

A god who "created the universe then stepped back" or one who "exercises some control of the universe" is theoretically possible, but immaterial and irrelevant to our daily lives as laymen.

in that case, you are and i are alike. and im not atheist, so im not entirely sure that makes you athiest...

[JellyDonut]

So the Roman Empire infrastructure decayed. Why did it take us 1500 years to regain that level of technology? Think for a second, here. The catholic church was the only constant. Emperors were born and then died off. The power of the catholic church that burnt heretics made people fear to pursue what most believed to be "dark arts". The physical sciences to most people was magic, and you got burned for practising magic. So only the people sanctioned by the church were allowed to do so. That stifling of progress is what caused us to be set back 1500 years.

The catholic church wasn't the only constant. Barbaric tribes that inherited the Western half were also present before, during and after the fall. They just continued ruling how they always did before. The Eastern Empire (which was abosrbed by the Byzantines) didn't decay at all. Regarding witch hunts: My contention isn't with the church of the 1500s as they were already established enough to be tyrannical.

[enwiabe]

enwiable, what are your thoughts on a deistic god - a god who created the universe but let it go its course - a god who hasn't revealed himself to a bunch of desert nomads - a god who does not care about human affairs?

My thoughts are who cares about such mindless speculation? It achieves nothing. You have no -possible- way of determining its veracity or not. And simply guessing that that is the case is intellectual laziness.

My thoughts are about determining the truth, whatever that is, and reserving my judgment for when the evidence comes in. And right now, we do not have a lick of it. And anyone claiming to have it is a charlatan and a liar.

We don't even know what caused our abiogenesis. For all we know, super-advanced aliens came and seeded this planet with life. But that's just imagination. And while it is certainly enjoyable to consider the theories, and to posit them, committing to any of them at this point in time is delusion.

What type of evidence are looking for? Physical evidence of god?

Why can't we make deductions about what the possible cause of the universe could be through what that being has created?

I'm not arguing for theism btw, I'm just trying to challenge my own views.

Because these are extraordinary claims, and such claims require the appropriate amount of evidence. What possible deductions could you make as a human with very limited sensory capability? About the origins of our universe 13.6 billion years ago? The only deductions we can make are ones we discover using empiricism. We can discover facts about the universe through our scientific method, and hopefully one day, determine our origins.

It is also entirely possible that we will never know. We may be too limited in our natural form to ever discover the truth.

[enwiabe]

So the Roman Empire infrastructure decayed. Why did it take us 1500 years to regain that level of technology? Think for a second, here. The catholic church was the only constant. Emperors were born and then died off. The power of the catholic church that burnt heretics made people fear to pursue what most believed to be "dark arts". The physical sciences to most people was magic, and you got burned for practising magic. So only the people sanctioned by the church were allowed to do so. That stifling of progress is what caused us to be set back 1500 years.

The catholic church wasn't the only constant. Barbaric tribes that inherited the Western half were also present before, during and after the fall. They just continued ruling how they always did before. The Eastern Empire (which was abosrbed by the Byzantines) didn't decay at all. Regarding witch hunts: My contention isn't with the church of the 1500s as they were already established enough to be tyrannical.

Which barbaric tribes were more powerful than the catholic church?

[JellyDonut]

Anyone of them with a standing army

[enwiabe]

Anyone of them with a standing army

Yes, any tribe with a standing army was stronger than the catholic church, which is why it died very quickly after the fall of the roman empire... Hmm....

[thushan]

Lemme try and remember.

With all due respect to religion, this is what happened:

I was about...10 or 11 years old. Very impressionable. And the Jehovah's Witnesses kept talking to me since I was 8 on the front door. One day, whilst reading the Mormon Bible, I came across something really scary - something to the effect that you should cut yourself and draw blood if you want God's forgiveness. I was like wtf and told my sister.

She was like to me - "religion is bullshit, do you have any proof god exists? does god answer all your prayers?" etc. Then I thought to myself "Hold on...yeah...religion is bullshit."

And I was an instant atheist.

That was my thought process - I say this with all due respect to religion.

You should commit to further inquiry on religion, because to be honest with you, an experience that you had when you were 10 shouldn't still be a driving force to your atheism (if it is)

What I don't understand in this whole god debate, is why do people make the assumption that you only have a choice between religion and atheism, because clearly you can be a deist or a theist without believing in religion (the scriptures, rituals, and traditions)

enwiable, what are your thoughts on a deistic god - a god who created the universe but let it go to its own course - a god who hasn't revealed himself to a bunch of desert nomads - a god who does not care about human affairs?

When I say atheist, I am talking about a god to whom you pray and seek favours from, or ask for forgiveness when you sin.

A god who "created the universe then stepped back" or one who "exercises some control of the universe" is theoretically possible, but immaterial and irrelevant to our daily lives as laymen.

in that case, you are and i are alike. and im not atheist, so im not entirely sure that makes you athiest...

Thought you were a devout christian abes? :/

[enwiabe]

i CLEARLY didnt say that religious arguments justify social laws.

Why shouldn't they? Have the courage to back your convictions. That's the divine word of god. Why should society not obey these words?

[ninwa]

By that logic, all the nations where homosexuality is accepted / not reviled (such as Australia) should have a high rate of AIDS infections. Which is obviously not true

The first notable cases of AIDS appeared in the 60s and 70s whilst the first case of AIDS in Australia occurred in 1982. Many factors need to also be considered such as relative geographic isolation and the improvement of awareness of the condition before cases were detected in the 10-20 year gap.

How does this prove your point that the church was responsible for limiting the spread of AIDS?

Australia was an example to illustrate my point. Please provide evidence showing that countries which do not reject homosexuality have a higher incidence of AIDS.