THIS IS FROM KINGPOMBA:I don't have much interest in debating anyone here personally, indeed, i could care less if someone actively won't listen to the other side to maintain what they think is true. That's not my problem. My problem is for a lot of people, they dont go off and do additional research into Islam or many other topics at hand. If whats here is the one a person reads about Islam, they can carry a lot of the untruths presented below with them, unintentionally too.
I'm bothering for the other people that might end up reading this. We've gone through all kinds of revolutions in the west that have been about freedom - Womens suffrage where we gave women the right to vote, the sexual revolution where old ideas were smashed, the horrors of WW2 taught the world powerful lessons as did the speeches of Dr. King and numerous other visionaries. LGBT are becoming increasingly accepted at a rapid pace, look at all the change thats happened in 40...50 years, less than a life time. However, there's a dangerous trend emerging all across the western world. Governments are becoming increasingly autocratic, the surveillance of the average citizen is increasing orders of magnitude. We're taught to be afraid. There is a disturbing trend of being afraid of foreigners (see boat people, even though they're less than 1% of our migrant intake as far as i recall). Europe is seeing the rise once again of ultra-nationalists like the Golden Dawn in Greece and the British National Party in the UK. Even in places like the Netherlands, where we picture a land of peace and tulips, is facing a rise in parties and sentiments like this. I'm not going to argue this is a new problem, its an old one, especially in Europe (lots of history here we cant go into) but it seems to be experiencing a resurgence.
Islam is our new panic to fixate on as a society. It seems so few of you realise, especially in the european continent, its taking the place that Jews or Gypsies used to inhabit. Same brand of vitriol, different target. In a world where we have a disturbing increase in the blurring of the lines between what is actually the truth (in the USA election we have debates over which version of events is even
reality, we're past reporting on news here, it's incredibly worrying) we are increasingly being fed a narrative rather than the truth. It seems Islam is increasingly becomming demonised and in a lot of countries is looked upon as almost a plague or a cause of a lot of problems.
The consequences are shocking. I was reading through the website of an Australian group who boycotted anything related to Muslims. As soon as their favourite brand was certified halal, they dumped it. Many 'true blue' aussie companies were abandoned in this process. They wrote an angry letter to a company that shall remain nameless. The CEO responded pointing out this allows us to reach an increasing overseas market, it'll bring more business and more aussie jobs to a struggling industry. They boycotted it anyway. Some nationalists they are. In the USA shotly after Sept. 11 many Sikh (an indian religon) men were attacked because they were turbans (it's an extremely sacred and important article of faith for them), every Sikh i've ever met has been nothing but nice. They were mistaken for Muslims. We have an increasingly malinformed (not even uninformed, malinformed, we're getting bad information) populace. There's calls amongst the ultra-nationalist parties of Europe to deport Muslims or paying them to leave.
We're getting into a dark, dark place.Now, my argument is that Islam is not a "Religion of Peace".
You know whats funny, i participate in a few muslims communities/forums, in addition to reading literature and watching debates about Islam and i rarely see this term used by muslims themselves. I always almost see it associated with people who are criticising Islam or about to go on some long diatribe about it. Funny that.
First of all, before we even get onto the crux of the issue, let's talk about what is Islam - from my research, "Islam" comes from the word "al-Slim" which means submission or surrender, not really my definition of peace.
This itself is indicative of your lack of understanding about Islam. If you can't even define the word correctly, that doesn't say a lot about the rest of your knowledge.
Arabic is an incredibly rich and beautiful language, it's often not easy to translate things across (this is true for any language really but even ordinary words in arabic can be hard). The kind of arabic we have in the Quran (Fusha) is different to the arabic spoken on the street.
As you can see, we already have a couple problems.
I don't claim to speak Arabic fluently (although i would like to) but i've developed some knowledge on the very basics and on the most important words i need to know in regards to Islam.
The word Islam is derived from the root
S-L-M present in a few languages, including hewbrew and arabic. Hewbrew and Arabic can be strikingly similar, i'm sure we've all heard the phrase Shalom (Aleichem), it's basically a greeting. In arabic we have As-Salam Alaikum. Say them both out loud, what do you notice? The similarities and shared history between Islam and the Judeochristian faiths run deeper than some of us think and yet we see so few people going on about the evils of Judaism.
Islam means submission, this is true, its not submission in the negative way you're trying to paint it, it's a blissful submission, giving yourself over to the one God. Accepting his love and guidance.
The roots S-L-M (
Sin Lam Mim - س ل م) appear numerous times in the Quran.
For example, we have it meaning Submission to God ( السِّلْمِ ):
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ادْخُلُوا فِي السِّلْمِ كَافَّةًO you who have believed, enter into
Islam completely [and perfectly] and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy. 2:208
We also see the SLM root derived to mean peace (سَلَامًا ):
سَلَامًا وَلَقَدْ جَاءَتْ رُسُلُنَا إِبْرَاهِيمَ بِالْبُشْرَىٰ قَالُواAnd certainly did Our messengers come to Abraham with good tidings; they said, "
Peace." He said, "Peace," and did not delay in bringing [them] a roasted calf.
So, it can mean a range of things from peace, to submitting yourself to God, to safety. The Quran's teachings are often well debated but there are multiple verses which suggest violence and in some ways, even idealises and promotes it.
If thats what you're looking for, you'll find it. We know what your view of Islam is already, is it a stretch to say you just might see what you want instead of whats actually there?
Many of the verses must be taken in a wider context, a fair few of the ones commonly used by people trying to paint a negative picture refer to historical wars and treaties that were going on around at the time of Muhammed (he wasn't just a preacher like Jesus, he was a general and a diplomat too).
You didn't include verse numbers and i don't feel like looking it up, however, if you supply these, you'll find the vast majority of ammunition in your arsenal is simply things you dont understand.
In 2001, Hashem Aghajari, who is an Iranian professor, was sentenced to death because of a speech which criticiesed Islamic practices in Islam.
The kings of old in Europe used to claim their authority was on
divine right. Often, in Islamic Countries, enemies of the state or the political system are persecuted under these charges. In a lot of cases, it has little to do with actual religion and more to do with politics. If you look to other places that were less than free like the (atheistic) soviet union, enemies of the state were treated the same way.
A great thing to read is "What everyone needs to know about Islam" by the noted scholar J. Esposito. If you're a monash student, you can log-in and read it here (
http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com.ezproxy.lib.monash.edu.au/wentkai.html ).
THIS IS MY ORIGINAL POSTBeing charitable does not mean not being violent.
A murderer may still donate to charity if he wishes.
You have no idea what you are talking about. The first quote is actually about trade.
Paraphrased to "It doesn't matter how much I know about something, I'll give opinions on it anyway."
Ofc it can do both. Yes it is contradictory. Welcome to religious holy books.
So you admit that the Quran preches violence?
It does both, as we said.
Ok, how much do you know about the Quran?
That is largely irrelevant, something that preaches war cannot preach peace, they are contradictory, it either means the book has no integrity, or that it is essentially only preaching one of them.
Wow, you've surpassed your own ignorance.
So let me get this straight, you started a thread based on the following:
1) You don't actually know what the Quran is about
2) That Muslims are only real "Muslims" if they follow the book word-for-word in a literal sense.
What you have written in you first post is almost equivalent to hate-speech with that backing. Very poor form.
This is lock worthy
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