Why the humanities matter.

[JellyDonut]

>Implying you can transcend the illusory world without achieving Nirvana

Uhh, yeah. Good luck with that

[paulsterio]

Why is an Arts degree always aligned with the ability to think, reason and critique?

It's not like Arts is the only degree in which these skills are taught, are we saying that Engineers, Doctors, Dentists and Accountants (for example) haven't learnt any thinking, reasoning and critiquing skills from their degrees?

At the same time, are we saying that all those who do not attend university cannot think, reason and critique?

Nothing against Arts degrees, but it's very unfair to say that it teaches us how to think when pretty much every other degree (as well as life experience) can also teach us that.

[Eriny]

Obviously all graduates can think for themselves, regardless of whether they have an arts degree, but there is a big difference. I think problem-solving best illustrates this. It's kind of difficult to explain, but the difference is whether you're solving problems based on a set of principles you've learned, or whether you question the assumptions made by the principles and work towards perhaps even producing better principles. This is quite abstract, but hopefully it makes sense. We need all types of thinkers who are thinking at different levels of broadness/narrowness and with different levels of criticism and about both how things are and how things should be.

I would argue that most Arts graduates are better at questioning and developing the principles and most professional degree students are better at applying principles (science students do a bit of both, I think). Not that it's an all or nothing kind of thing.

[paulsterio]

I both agree and disagree, your example of problem solving is a good one, and yes, there are those who solve problems based on a set of learned principles whilst there are others who question these principles...etc. However, I really think that the way we view, analyse or (in this case) solve problems is based on our life experiences, the way we view things and to some extent our intelligence more so than the degree we are undertaking.

I guess it's just the fact that I've seen nothing concrete that suggests Arts graduates are better at thinking and questioning. Like what exactly is taught in an Arts degree which leads to that...etc. Whilst at the same time, I have observed many great thinkers from various backgrounds including Medicine, Law, Science and yes, even Arts, but definitely not exclusively Arts.

[JellyDonut]

The validity of models in mathematical or science isn't exactly a great subject for undergrad debate, so STEM students usually aren't fostered with those sets of skills
"Hey guys, read these 10 pages of mathematical proofs and come back with a refutation".

[Eriny]

I both agree and disagree, your example of problem solving is a good one, and yes, there are those who solve problems based on a set of learned principles whilst there are others who question these principles...etc. However, I really think that the way we view, analyse or (in this case) solve problems is based on our life experiences, the way we view things and to some extent our intelligence more so than the degree we are undertaking.

I guess it's just the fact that I've seen nothing concrete that suggests Arts graduates are better at thinking and questioning. Like what exactly is taught in an Arts degree which leads to that...etc. Whilst at the same time, I have observed many great thinkers from various backgrounds including Medicine, Law, Science and yes, even Arts, but definitely not exclusively Arts.

As an Arts student, whenever I took units out of the Arts faculty I was always frustrated by the fact that students weren't really encouraged to see the limitations of the theory/concepts they were learning, or they weren't taught to see their discipline in an historical/cultural context. The kind of critical thinking I'm talking about can be quite complex and wouldn't necessarily improve one's ability to be say, an accountant or engineer, etc. and while it's not vital that everyone has honed their skills in this area for 3+ years because they learn other valuable skills instead, but it is vital that some people think in these big picture ways.

[brenden]

The average Latin or Philosophy student scores on average significantly higher than the mean on standardised tests. Food for thought.

[paulsterio]

The validity of models in mathematical or science isn't exactly a great subject for undergrad debate, so STEM students usually aren't fostered with those sets of skills
"Hey guys, read these 10 pages of mathematical proofs and come back with a refutation".

Yes, but that assumes that we question things which we learn in university. That isn't the case, I question much more things I come across in life than I would ever encounter at Uni, but I disagree with you, there are many areas in Science where we are still often forced to think outside of the box, especially in the areas where Science interacts with people.

As an Arts student, whenever I took units out of the Arts faculty I was always frustrated by the fact that students weren't really encouraged to see the limitations of the theory/concepts they were learning, or they weren't taught to see their discipline in an historical/cultural context. The kind of critical thinking I'm talking about can be quite complex and wouldn't necessarily improve one's ability to be say, an accountant or engineer, etc. and while it's not vital that everyone has honed their skills in this area for 3+ years because they learn other valuable skills instead, but it is vital that some people think in these big picture ways.

Yes, but like I say it's not purely an academic thing, we gain critical thinking skills as we grow up and come into contact with things. I know this is assumptive, but in some cases, those who grow up in different circumstances will view the world that slightly differently and that's not because of just their education. Like with you (and myself as well I guess), no matter what we're learning, we'll try to see and to think in that big picture way because that's how our minds work. There are many more like us in many different disciplines. Similarly, I could say that there are some people who just aren't good at thinking in this way and no matter what they study (even Arts), they still won't have those thinking qualities.

The average Latin or Philosophy student scores on average significantly higher than the mean on standardised tests. Food for thought.

I would bet my bottom dollar that Engineering, Medicine and Law students would also score higher than the mean. I don't really think the mean is a good point of comparison anyways, because most students who are at a respectable university should, by default, already be somewhat above the mean.

[EvangelionZeta]

As an Arts student, whenever I took units out of the Arts faculty I was always frustrated by the fact that students weren't really encouraged to see the limitations of the theory/concepts they were learning, or they weren't taught to see their discipline in an historical/cultural context. The kind of critical thinking I'm talking about can be quite complex and wouldn't necessarily improve one's ability to be say, an accountant or engineer, etc. and while it's not vital that everyone has honed their skills in this area for 3+ years because they learn other valuable skills instead, but it is vital that some people think in these big picture ways.

Yes, but like I say it's not purely an academic thing, we gain critical thinking skills as we grow up and come into contact with things. I know this is assumptive, but in some cases, those who grow up in different circumstances will view the world that slightly differently and that's not because of just their education. Like with you (and myself as well I guess), no matter what we're learning, we'll try to see and to think in that big picture way because that's how our minds work. There are many more like us in many different disciplines. Similarly, I could say that there are some people who just aren't good at thinking in this way and no matter what they study (even Arts), they still won't have those thinking qualities.

Of course these skills aren't mutually exclusive with a degree - the point is, however, that such a degree develops said skills further, refining them and honing them rigorously over a number of years. 

The average Latin or Philosophy student scores on average significantly higher than the mean on standardised tests. Food for thought.

I would bet my bottom dollar that Engineering, Medicine and Law students would also score higher than the mean. I don't really think the mean is a good point of comparison anyways, because most students who are at a respectable university should, by default, already be somewhat above the mean.

I think I should probably clarify Brendan's statement a bit - Classics and Philosophy majors score higher than the mean in the GRE, which is a general aptitude test used to assess people (people who are graduating/have graduated from university) for graduate study.  They also happen to beat out a lot of the majors (or majors associated) with the disciplines you just referred to.

http://www.princetonreview.com/majors.aspx?cip=161200
http://www.umflint.edu/philosophy/phl-gre.htm
http://www.physicscentral.com/buzz/blog/index.cfm?postid=6469561661568777605

The stuff about the GRE should probably also be the statistical evidence you asked for of Arts graduates being better at thinking and questioning - I can find some stuff relating to how Philosophy majors frequently top the LSAT and GMAT (the Law and Med-entry tests) as well if you want.

[paulsterio]

EZ

1) I know they aren't mutually exclusive with a degree and I also know that an Arts degree will develop those skills, but I just don't agree with saying that other degrees will not develop these skills (or will develop these skills to a lesser extent) because that's just not true. If one has an interest in (for example) history and decides to do an Arts degree to pursue that, then I think that's really good, just like if one decides to do Science because he likes Maths - however, I just don't think it's fair to argue that the History student will end up a better thinker than the Maths student because of the degree he is doing.

2) Ahh, that is interesting, am I the only one surprised that Maths majors don't even make an appearance at the top for Qualitative Reasoning?

[Eriny]

As an Arts student, whenever I took units out of the Arts faculty I was always frustrated by the fact that students weren't really encouraged to see the limitations of the theory/concepts they were learning, or they weren't taught to see their discipline in an historical/cultural context. The kind of critical thinking I'm talking about can be quite complex and wouldn't necessarily improve one's ability to be say, an accountant or engineer, etc. and while it's not vital that everyone has honed their skills in this area for 3+ years because they learn other valuable skills instead, but it is vital that some people think in these big picture ways.

Yes, but like I say it's not purely an academic thing, we gain critical thinking skills as we grow up and come into contact with things. I know this is assumptive, but in some cases, those who grow up in different circumstances will view the world that slightly differently and that's not because of just their education. Like with you (and myself as well I guess), no matter what we're learning, we'll try to see and to think in that big picture way because that's how our minds work. There are many more like us in many different disciplines. Similarly, I could say that there are some people who just aren't good at thinking in this way and no matter what they study (even Arts), they still won't have those thinking qualities.

Of course these skills aren't mutually exclusive with a degree - the point is, however, that such a degree develops said skills further, refining them and honing them rigorously over a number of years. 

Plus, Arts also offers a frame of reference for critical thinking. To some degree, it's important to know what others have already had to say on the thing you're thinking about. Yet, understanding the thoughts of great thinkers is often difficult. It's made especially difficult by the fact that their analyses are always influenced by their own time period and by other thinkers.

I don't know if this sounds quite trivial, but it isn't trivial. It's hard to convey that to people who think Arts is easy, because from the outside it does look fairly easy. It may be written in complicated language, but most university students can read it if they concerntrate. There's a book by someone who used to be a physicist. They thought that the problems of sociology were easy and that it would be better to go into sociology due to a (sad) lack of funding in physics in the US. But, in reality, he found it far more complex than it seemed. Here's the preface of the book he wrote about it: http://everythingisobvious.com/wp-content/themes/eio/assets/EIO_preface.pdf

Re: the GRE, I've taken the exam and I wouldn't put too much stock in the stats, it doesn't really test critical thinking skills.

[EvangelionZeta]

EZ

1) I know they aren't mutually exclusive with a degree and I also know that an Arts degree will develop those skills, but I just don't agree with saying that other degrees will not develop these skills (or will develop these skills to a lesser extent) because that's just not true. If one has an interest in (for example) history and decides to do an Arts degree to pursue that, then I think that's really good, just like if one decides to do Science because he likes Maths - however, I just don't think it's fair to argue that the History student will end up a better thinker than the Maths student because of the degree he is doing.

2) Ahh, that is interesting, am I the only one surprised that Maths majors don't even make an appearance at the top for Qualitative Reasoning?

1. The point being made is that Arts trains a certain type of thinking that the other degrees don't.  The dominance of philosophy in the GRE should probably suggest that to some extent.  I for one wouldn't deny that there are valuable thinking skills to be obtained from for instance a maths degree - just that they won't be the same skills as the ones in a philosophy one.  Unless you think being good at thinking is just one skill.

2. The graphs aren't all-encompassing - they just show some of the majors, even with the quaNTitative reasoning one.  Although maybe this incidates that you could do with an Arts degree, to help with your verbal reasoning skills!

[paulsterio]

Yeah, I get what you mean regarding the different types of thinking, I definitely agree with that, and no two types of thinking are the same, like even after a year of doing Medicine, I've started to wonder and think about many issues which were unknown to me before (both sociological and biological issues, in fact) - even though I probably won't have that much depth of knowledge, it's surprising what insights into the world education can give. You're right though, there are just many different sets of thinking skills which are obtained from different places for different purposes.

Second thing, ah yes, I meant that I am surprised there are no Maths majors in the QUANTITATIVE reasoning one. Ahh yes, not just verbal reasoning, but things such as writing, language and communication skills as well.

[MeLucky]

As an Arts student, whenever I took units out of the Arts faculty I was always frustrated by the fact that students weren't really encouraged to see the limitations of the theory/concepts they were learning, or they weren't taught to see their discipline in an historical/cultural context. The kind of critical thinking I'm talking about can be quite complex and wouldn't necessarily improve one's ability to be say, an accountant or engineer, etc. and while it's not vital that everyone has honed their skills in this area for 3+ years because they learn other valuable skills instead, but it is vital that some people think in these big picture ways.

Yes, but like I say it's not purely an academic thing, we gain critical thinking skills as we grow up and come into contact with things. I know this is assumptive, but in some cases, those who grow up in different circumstances will view the world that slightly differently and that's not because of just their education. Like with you (and myself as well I guess), no matter what we're learning, we'll try to see and to think in that big picture way because that's how our minds work. There are many more like us in many different disciplines. Similarly, I could say that there are some people who just aren't good at thinking in this way and no matter what they study (even Arts), they still won't have those thinking qualities.

It's not as simple as that. Of course everybody's going to have critical thinking skills (of varying degree). However, an Arts degree exposes students to a broad range of subjects. The benefit of it not being a specialised vocational/professional degree is that it focuses on being inter-disciplinary or cross-disciplinary. Students are therefore encouraged to think holistically and creatively.This means learn to see things from many perspectives  and this gives them a greater ability to critically analyse problems.

[paulsterio]

It's that sentiment I don't agree with, I don't understand why Arts students tend to think that their degree helps them develop thinking skills which are superior to other degrees.

Can you just please explain how a Sociology major has superior thinking skills (holistically and creatively) compared to a Physics major and how these skills lead them to having a greater ability to critically analyse problems.

Also, what problems are we talking about, this is all very, very vague.