Why the humanities matter.

[EvangelionZeta]

It's that sentiment I don't agree with, I don't understand why Arts students tend to think that their degree helps them develop thinking skills which are superior to other degrees.

Can you just please explain how a Sociology major has superior thinking skills (holistically and creatively) compared to a Physics major and how these skills lead them to having a greater ability to critically analyse problems.

Also, what problems are we talking about, this is all very, very vague.

Well for one, I think a Sociology major would probably be able to infer what kind of problems we're talking about.

And again, the point isn't that Arts is superior for thinking - it's that it fosters specific (and necessary) skills that are important.  Other skills are just as important and are fostered by other degrees.  This point has been made throughout this topic; Arts would train you to realise this and the relevance of previous statements in relation to what you just said.

[JellyDonut]

I think I should probably clarify Brendan's statement a bit - Classics and Philosophy majors score higher than the mean in the GRE, which is a general aptitude test used to assess people (people who are graduating/have graduated from university) for graduate study.  They also happen to beat out a lot of the majors (or majors associated) with the disciplines you just referred to.

Razib Khan (a dude that runs a blog on Discovery mag) took said GRE tests and plotted them on a pretty cool plane.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/01/schematic.jpg
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/01/schematic2.jpg

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/01/classicists-are-smart/

[lynt.br]

curious as to what are some examples of these 'specific' skills that are fostered in an arts degree (let's say - history) that are not fostered in some other degree?
edit: took a read through and the saw the following

It's kind of difficult to explain, but the difference is whether you're solving problems based on a set of principles you've learned, or whether you question the assumptions made by the principles and work towards perhaps even producing better principles

I don't get this - how is problem solving in say, linguistics not based on a set of principles you have learned? Isn't all problem solving based on logic and evidence anyway? Analysing competing views etc. I fail to see the fundamental difference or why arts is somehow different here...

Plus, Arts also offers a frame of reference for critical thinking. To some degree, it's important to know what others have already had to say on the thing you're thinking about. Yet, understanding the thoughts of great thinkers is often difficult. It's made especially difficult by the fact that their analyses are always influenced by their own time period and by other thinkers.

Again I'm not seeing how any of this is unique to the Arts degree... I mean what you have said pretty neatly sums up the law degree actually. Not to mention Science would take a leaf from that passage as well.

edit: further question, can someone please explain to me specifically how 'thinking' in arts is somehow different to 'thinking' in other degrees?
IMO thinking is thinking is thinking. What is different between Arts and other degrees isn't the type of thinking involved but the way that they are taught.

The point being made is that Arts trains a certain type of thinking that the other degrees don't.

Can you explain this 'certain type of thinking' - until we know what this is it is impossible to discuss your point.

I personally have no desire to live in a world where only sciences and maths are valued, where practicality is prioritised over beauty

science and maths don't necessarily prioritise 'practicality' over beauty. Case in point is evolutionary biology which is often underfunded due to its perceived lack of significance these days. Heaps of people still study it for the purpose academic interest (or 'beauty') of it.
Same goes for fields of pure mathematics (in fact I think Monash offers a subject call the beauty of mathematics as part of a pure maths major).

also regarding self-learning an arts degree - of course it is possible... that is what hundreds of people do when they learn a language....
I think you can self-learn any field of knowledge if you have the passion and resources to do so. I think it's easier to self-learn something like history then it is to self learn medicine though.


tldr version: someone explain what these special unique arts skills are!

[appianway]

science and maths don't necessarily prioritise 'practicality' over beauty. Case in point is evolutionary biology which is often underfunded due to its perceived lack of significance these days. Heaps of people still study it for the purpose academic interest (or 'beauty') of it.

I study physics because I find it to be beautiful and elegant. I don't study it because it's going to land me a great job as a tenure track professor, because honestly, the job prospects for physics employment aren't fantastic.

[Eriny]

curious as to what are some examples of these 'specific' skills that are fostered in an arts degree (let's say - history) that are not fostered in some other degree?
edit: took a read through and the saw the following

It's kind of difficult to explain, but the difference is whether you're solving problems based on a set of principles you've learned, or whether you question the assumptions made by the principles and work towards perhaps even producing better principles

I don't get this - how is problem solving in say, linguistics not based on a set of principles you have learned? Isn't all problem solving based on logic and evidence anyway? Analysing competing views etc. I fail to see the fundamental difference or why arts is somehow different here...

Linguistics is a bit different to a lot of Arts majors as it is quite applied, though it's similar enough - as with all Arts majors you learn a bunch of theories but equally you learn to question those theories from a large range of perspectives. I'm sure theoretical questioning happens in other disciplines too, but it's like, 'lecture two: limitations' rather than the whole course, and it isn't really brought up again until you get to more advanced levels.

Also, just to clear up, nobody is arguing that Arts is better than other majors, just different. Law may involve similar reasoning though (or at least the law subjects that are not black letter law). Indeed, subjects like legal studies are often offered as an Arts major.

I guess the easiest example of what I'm talking about to understand would be something like the philosophy of science. So, you have scientists doing important research within the discipline and then philosophers looking at the system of reasoning they're using, the validity of empiricism, how results might be impacted by underlying hard to perceive biases, the difference between public perceptions of science and the reality (this is especially disparate in medical science), etc.

[passageway]

Just my 2 cents on this matter.

I think on the merits of an arts degree as compared to many vocational degrees in developing thinking skills are pretty similar. I'm speaking as someone who has done two units of history and two units of philosophy as well as many units in engineering. I feel they've both taught me to think in different ways and developed my ability to think, almost everything you can say about an Arts degree is equally applicable to an engineering degree. I'm not pretending that my four units in the arts is equivalent to a whole degree, but I feel I've had a good taste of it.

The devaluation of the arts degree has nothing to do with a society declining in thinking, more so it's a cultural shift in the way we have entertainment. The great majority of us Australians are satisfied with Hollywood films and sport as our entertainment. This hasn't always been the case and I particularly recommend a German film named Faust on this, in which you have an insight into Nazi Germany and the people's appreciation for good theater and just how highly they regard Shakespeare, the only foreign playwright deemed un-bannable during the third reich. This is a culture (with many perilous ideals) that did value art and people wouldn't be satisfied with a trashy script with a few special effects to gloss it over. There was genuine demand from the people for theater, drama and fine art amongst other things.

There are many societies that have valued art to this extent, we're just not one of them currently. We, westerners, have seen something of a revolution in the sciences in the last few decades, with an appreciation for science that is growing steadily, we haven't quite had that cultural artistic awakening just yet where we move past Hollywood crap and society demands art, true art. I hope I live to see the day this happens, as I would much rather go see a well-performed Chekhovian play than some crap like Paranormal 4. When society demands theater, good literature (in electronic or paper form), people to teach their children history properly, art galleries and true live music (not Americanized bullshit but true music like jazz et al), then we will see an appreciation of the Arts degree.

Just because society has woken up as such, doesn't mean that Arts grads need to differentiate their degree on a pseudo-basis like 'it teaches us to think'. Most degrees teach you think, so please don't use this but it's not your fault society has woken up yet to recognize the merits of your skills.

Having said that, get over the Arts jokes and meme-pages, we engineers will continue to make them, learn to cop a bit of stick or give it back!

[brenden]

The jokes are a little but different when you're targeting someone's perception of their future. The gravity of the situation is greater in targeting what might be a huge sensitivity - imagine feeling devoid of all hope concerning your future? At the end of the day you can leave a flame war and say "lol that joke about women in engineering was a good one but oh well, I'm gonna be an engineer one day". An Arts student doesn't have that. 'Learn to cop a bit f stick or give it back' just ruined a somewhat eloquent post lol. Ofc people should be able to tolerate criticism in life but 'just take it' was never good advice in defence of any bullying in any way, shape or form.

[passageway]

The jokes are a little but different when you're targeting someone's perception of their future. The gravity of the situation is greater in targeting what might be a huge sensitivity - imagine feeling devoid of all hope concerning your future? At the end of the day you can leave a flame war and say "lol that joke about women in engineering was a good one but oh well, I'm gonna be an engineer one day". An Arts student doesn't have that. 'Learn to cop a bit f stick or give it back' just ruined a somewhat eloquent post lol. Ofc people should be able to tolerate criticism in life but 'just take it' was never good advice in defence of any bullying in any way, shape or form.

Devoid of all hope concerning your future?

When a child wakes up in Africa, there's every chance that parasites will invade his eye, make him blind for the rest of his life, all because his family couldn't afford a medicine that costs a few dollars and is provided to every resident of this country free of charge under medicare.

In Africa, in poor areas, just attending primary school is an absolute rarity that the children cherish every day for the rest of their lives. In parts of Asia, you literally have 100s of men sleeping under bridges fighting over scraps of food not fit for the village cat in out country. In Greece right now, when you go to university, you can literally appreciate the meaning of the term, 'a worthless piece of paper'.

You are privileged to live in a country that allows you to study at some of the finest institutions in the world and then be guaranteed work in some capacity to support your family to be healthy, educated and happy.

And the future for arts grads isn't so bleak, you can always become a teacher and 99% of the people in the world would trade their job for your job.

But in response to the bullying, it's just not of this nature, everything these days is classes as bullying. I have mates who do arts, they happily retort on facebook with images of  females (obviously because in eng we don't have too many).

And it's not frequent or anything, the guys at uni who continue with the arts jokes are lame, usually the ones who actively engage at uni, not sure how to explain this to you, but basically the ones who can't get over themselves being at a uni and being social non-stop.

It's more of a rare dig at your mates.

[ninwa]

Just because there are starving children in Africa means nobody here can ever complain about anything?

Tell that to the homeless person begging for change in the CBD. "At least you don't have parasites invading your eye!"

[paulsterio]

There are reasons why Arts jokes exist, it's because of a proportion of Arts students doing nothing but partying, not rocking up to most of their classes and somehow still passing. Although I agree that Arts is not easy, there are some Arts students who just paint their degree out to be a joke.

[passageway]

Just because there are starving children in Africa means nobody here can ever complain about anything?

Tell that to the homeless person begging for change in the CBD. "At least you don't have parasites invading your eye!"

Sorry where did I say this?

I was disqualifying the statement, 'Devoid of all hope concerning your future' and I classed homeless people as people who can make this statement with some validity whereas arts grads simply cannot.

If he wants to make the complaint, 'I wish I could get a job, life is unfair' I would say, fair enough, I was simply pointing out his complaint was hyperbolic and not consistent with reality.

Paul, agreed mate. In all my philosophy lecturers, there was never more than 2 out of the the 10 people who had done the readings. M-ASS (melb arts soceity) has a pub-night during SWOTVAC. No-one is saying that this is reflective of all arts students, but that's the nature of a joke.

[JellyDonut]

You don't need all of society to become 'enlightened', so to speak, for an appreciation of the arts. I'm pretty sure arts students don't give two shits about what some dropkick at Maccas thinks about them - they just need the right people to recognise them.

Also, stop with the African argument. Just because someone else has it worse doesn't make their concerns anymore invalid.
^If you were trying to argue it as being hyperbolic, just say it is.

[passageway]

You don't need all of society to become 'enlightened', so to speak, for an appreciation of the arts. I'm pretty sure arts students don't give two shits about what some dropkick at Maccas thinks about them - they just need the right people to recognise them.

Also, stop with the African argument. Just because someone else has it worse doesn't make their concerns anymore invalid.
^If you were trying to argue it as being hyperbolic, just say it is.

Well, until that dropkick at Maccas wants to spend his hard-earned wages on services arts-grads can perform, their job chances will retain the status quo.

[ninwa]

There are reasons why Arts jokes exist, it's because of a proportion of Arts students doing nothing but partying, not rocking up to most of their classes and somehow still passing. Although I agree that Arts is not easy, there are some Arts students who just paint their degree out to be a joke.

Because arts students are the only ones that do that?

[Russ]

Paul, agreed mate. In all my philosophy lecturers, there was never more than 2 out of the the 10 people who had done the readings. M-ASS (melb arts soceity) has a pub-night during SWOTVAC. No-one is saying that this is reflective of all arts students, but that's the nature of a joke.

Right, the engies have never done anything but study during SWOTVAC -.-