Should students that do Specialist be restricted from Further?

[Professor Polonsky]

Firstly, you seem to assume that mathematical proficiency is a natural gift. Such an assumption is not to be borne, for reasons which I consider quite conspicuous. Competence in mathematics comes from hard work and dedication. Succinctly, a good mathematician is not born, but made.

I can't agree with that. A lot of it is natural talent.

[BoredSatan]

So Watto..

Pretty much all you are saying is that all the Spech kids out there are geniuses at maths and are almost definitely better than every single Further kid out there. Well let me tell you for a fact that many Further kids pick further and not Specialist specifically because they believe it is easier and more rewarding for their ATAR. I remember back in my high school days when many of the top maths students in my school decided against picking Spech and doing Further instead and then scoring an amazing score.

The kids who pick Spech and Further not only have to learn an extra subject but they also have to compete against the brilliant math kids who are doing only Further. Ok so you think that the overlap of maths between the two subjects would benefit the Spech students. Well Spech has almost a whole chapter of Physics and would it be fair to not let the Physics kids to Spech? of course not. The restriction that only 2 maths can be in top 4 is already enough. There is no guarantee that all the spech kids will do well in further, and from experience with friends who did do both, they either did well in spech or further and rarely both.

[Professor Polonsky]

BoredSatan has a point. You might only further discourage people from doing spesh, which is not desirable.

[watto_22]

There is no guarantee that all the spech kids will do well in further, and from experience with friends who did do both, they either did well in spech or further and rarely both.

Not sure exactly what you might define as doing 'well', but if you are talking about getting 45+ scaled scores, I think it is unfair for mathematicians to get 3 chances to have 2 really good Maths scores in their top 4, in addition to whatever the 3rd maths score was, while no other subject area really has this luxury.
How did these friends generally go in Methods?

BoredSatan has a point. You might only further discourage people from doing spesh, which is not desirable.

I hadn't actually thought of that - that there are perhaps people capable for either subject who already are choosing further over spesh.
I find it disheartening that these people knowingly chose the 'easier' subject just because it is 'more rewarding for their ATAR'. Surely it's a vote of disconfidence from themselves to themselves as much as anything, because if they can crack a raw 40 for spesh then their scaled score (40 --> 51) will be higher than even a 50 for Further.
Do you think that having a restriction, and effectively forcing these students to choose only one of Spesh or Further, would result in fewer boys doing Spesh (because they will pick Further)?
Previously I had thought that the best Maths kids would all just pick Spesh, but as BoredSatan wrote, it sounds like this would hardly be the case.

Regardless, the restriction would force boys to do a different subject in lieu of another maths. Especially with the Physics/Spesh similarities, a common Top 4 subject combination could be:
English/Lit/EL, Methods, Spesh, Physics
which I guess is fine, if quite similar.
Ultimately I suppose that I hope that a restriction on doing only one of Spesh or Further would mean that more students might choose to do more diverse subjects with that now vacant subject slot, as well as giving Further students more of a fair go. Hopefully that would make everyone happier

[Stick]

Realistically, if you really believe that the skills needed for Further are not fostered by the other Maths subjects, go now onto the VCAA website and do the Further exams from say last year. Inform us of how you go despite never having looked at the Further course.
This could be a fun holiday activity for us all to do!

Do Data Analysis, Business-related Mathematics and Networks and Decision Mathematics. I'd love to see how you'd score on them with no previous knowledge whatsoever.

[thushan]

I can't agree with that. A lot of it is natural talent.

I'm with Polonius. Mathematical talent can be made in that people can develop a skill for computational mathematics very well. However, when it comes to mathematics where instinct is required - for instance in the Olympiad (I'm talking International Mathematical Olympiad here), no matter how hard you work, if you don't have that instinct, you will not be able to progress to that level of competence.

[Planck's constant]

I am more or less with watto_22 on this.
I am not advocating restrictions, but the only reason a Methods/Spesh student to also do further is for the tactical advantage of the easy marks with minimal effort leaving more time to devote to other subjects such as English.

I was tutoring a Further student last year (Core, Geometry, Networks, Matrices) and I can categorically state that it's childs play for a student with Methods 3/4 and GMA under their belt. They are already at a higher level in Geometry and Matrices and the only things they will have to learn is Time Series, smoothing and Seasonal Adjustment in Core and critical paths, optimal allocation algorithms in Networks which they should be able to do in a week.

My gut feel is that if all of the 4,000 Spesh students also did Further, they would all comfortably place in the Further Top 5,000.

[b^3]

....but the only reason a Methods/Spesh student to also do further is for the tactical advantage of the easy marks with minimal effort leaving more time to devote to other subjects such as English.

I did Further a year early in year 11, and it wasn't just to get a high score, I was looking at it as a 'trial run' for the next year, a way to get used to VCAA exams and preparation and such. Which did help me the year later, found what worked and what didn't work and was able to change things for yr 12. The high score in the end was just a bonus

[Conic]

gut feel is that if all of the 4,000 Spesh students also did Further, they would all comfortably place in the Further Top 5,000.

I'm pretty sure no one in my spesh class is doing further. I can't speak for other schools, but I assume the fact that all 3 can't be in you top 4 seems to deter people. A lot of schools seem to discourage or disallow people doing all 3 maths because of this.

[Planck's constant]

I did Further a year early in year 11

Doing Further in Year 11 is understandable (for the reasons you mentioned).
I also believe that you were capable of smashing Methods 3/4 in Year 11 (had your school allowed you to accelerate), and if you had that choice I would have expected you to pick Methods.

[walkec]

Do Data Analysis, Business-related Mathematics and Networks and Decision Mathematics. I'd love to see how you'd score on them with no previous knowledge whatsoever.

Oh snap Stick!

[watto_22]

Do Data Analysis, Business-related Mathematics and Networks and Decision Mathematics. I'd love to see how you'd score on them with no previous knowledge whatsoever.

Yeah maybe now, but realise that a Spesh kid who does Further is actually allowed (and probably is encouraged) to do at least some work throughout the year, so surely they would be just fine in those areas by the end of the year.

[walkec]

Yeah maybe now, but realise that a Spesh kid who does Further is actually allowed (and probably is encouraged) to do at least some work throughout the year, so surely they would be just fine in those areas by the end of the year.

Hmm, you'd like to think so. Especially with this idea that spesh kids always ace further! I know of a spesh kid that did further, didn't really put any attention into it because he said it was 'dumb dumb maths', boom 28 SS!

[rebeckab]

At my school, all students planning on doing Spec in Year 12 have to do Further 3/4 in Year 11 has part of an adjusted GMA class, basically so we get experience in VCE maths before Year 12. They do better than the average further cohort, but in no way is the difference amazing - statistics and sequence/series is so different to the rest of the maths we do, the only advantage our teacher really said we had was that we generally worked a lot quicker than the average further student. And I've known plenty of Further-only students who have gotten 40+ at my school, roughly equal to the number of year 11s who were planning on doing spec at school..

[rebeckab]

Hmm, you'd like to think so. Especially with this idea that spesh kids always ace further! I know of a spesh kid that did further, didn't really put any attention into it because he said it was 'dumb dumb maths', boom 28 SS!

also, definitely agreeing with this - there are plenty of kids who don't put in the required effort and get 20s/low 30s, just because it's the 'easy' maths. I personally found a lot of the content in Further a lot harder than in Methods, especially due to the wording of the questions.