Is the VCE a fair system?

[pi]

No, I meant students listening to podcasts through their ipod while doing their exams.

Let's be honest, that's not a problem with VCE, that's a problem with that school hiring shit invigilators and the school having a serious lack of discipline.

[Shenz0r]

No, I meant students listening to podcasts through their ipod while doing their exams.

Yeah...that should've been reported. But that's only occurred because the supervisors aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing.

When you're talking about injustice in the VCE system, you would mainly be talking about how it's marked on a bell curve, how scaling works for each subject, or something like that.

[bully3000]

Yeah it sounds like they are having a problem with slack teachers etc. not really the system as a whole.

Okay, fine.
I suppose it really is slack teachers and lazy students who can't study but can distract other students. The whole environment can be overwhelming. I'm sure any student can perform badly if they are going to a bad school long enough.
I'm just interested if you are an average student or a smart student going to very bad school, how can you still do well if you also don't have a conducive study environment at home as well.

[michak]

Okay, fine.
I suppose it really is slack teachers and lazy students who can't study but can distract other students. The whole environment can be overwhelming. I'm sure any student can perform badly if they are going to a bad school long enough.
I'm just interested if you are an average student or a smart student going to very bad school, how can you still do well if you also don't have a conducive study environment at home as well.

To be perfectly honest im not quite sure how to help you as I didnt have this problem. Hopefully someone else can help you out.

[MJRomeo81]

should be an english AND a maths required in your top 4, so the people who are good at english and not maths have to suffer like i do

Even in math you need to be able to explain yourself in written english as you progress through your studies. However VCE English is garbage (more on this below).

Personally I think the system is fair. Not as fair as the tertiary system but considering the number of students and schools, the system seems "fair" to me. I previously subscribed to the notion that 'scaling was BS'. But I honestly think it's fair since subjects like spesh and languages are more competitive than further maths and IT Applications.

So my issue isn't with the fairness of the VCE system. It's to do with the quality. Allow me to elaborate.

Years 1-11 are a joke so most students don't study hard and then suddenly they meet the VCE 'A major cause of youth suicide'. Mainstream English is a waste of time where you can literally can buy and memorize essays. The 'essays' we're forced to write are formulaic based on outdated structures that have little in common with writing essays that will be read in life after school. English in VCE doesn't teach communication. It teaches useless drivel. Mainstream English needs to be re-designed.

Chemistry, Physics and Biology are a joke full of rote learning (just memorize a few dot points per syllabus dot point). Sciences are meant to be structured on problem-solving/critical-thinking bases not rote learning.

From what I've read on AN, this definitely doesn't apply to anyone on these boards (just random idiots I see on facebook). However, my other issue is with the number of VCE high achievers who charge people for tuition. VCE credentials don't correlate to better quality teaching or skills to convey ideas, motivate students, efficiency, etc.

[Will T]

I think the flaws in the VCE can be summarised by compulsory English and government induced LOTE scaling. Both are government initiatives to encourage students to care about particular subjects, but both of them unfortunately create inequity from the get-go (for obvious reasons). Other than that, discrepant marking is a bit of an issue, and I know people will say it's the same for everyone, but if you get a discrepant mark that means one examiner was satisfied with your response, and one wasn't. So another student could've quite possibly had two examiners who were satisfied or two that weren't. The exam board really needs to be a bit more unified on what is and isn't acceptable.

Excluding those 3 things, a think what upsets a lot of people is that, their hard work does not yield equivalent results to the hard work of a child who had been encouraged from birth by his parents to play a musical instrument, go to Kumon or other additional tuition, attend a private school from preparatory through to Year 12 and have extensive, non-remedial tuition for the upper-year levels. When you get kids like that who are hard-working and compare their results to students whose socioeconomic situation forced them to have no access to elite tuition (of all kinds) and who weren't supported at all by their parents, you get grand inconsistencies in your results. Both students are hard-working, but one was encouraged/supported/nurtured much more than the other.

But none of that is a flaw of the VCE system, more so a consequence of the circumstances of one's birth, which are uncontrollable. But I can kind of understand why a lot of people get frustrated when they don't get the results they thought their hard work was equivalent to at the end of year 12.

After reading above I'd have to agree the VCE curriculum could do with a bit of a re-work, but an outdated, useless curriculum doesn't impact equity.

[michak]

I think the flaws in the VCE can be summarised by compulsory English and government induced LOTE scaling. Both are government initiatives to encourage students to care about particular subjects, but both of them unfortunately create inequity from the get-go (for obvious reasons). Other than that, discrepant marking is a bit of an issue, and I know people will say it's the same for everyone, but if you get a discrepant mark that means one examiner was satisfied with your response, and one wasn't. So another student could've quite possibly had two examiners who were satisfied or two that weren't. The exam board really needs to be a bit more unified on what is and isn't acceptable.

Excluding those 3 things, a think what upsets a lot of people is that, their hard work does not yield equivalent results to the hard work of a child who had been encouraged from birth by his parents to play a musical instrument, go to Kumon or other additional tuition, attend a private school from preparatory through to Year 12 and have extensive, non-remedial tuition for the upper-year levels. When you get kids like that who are hard-working and compare their results to students whose socioeconomic situation forced them to have no access to elite tuition (of all kinds) and who weren't supported at all by their parents, you get grand inconsistencies in your results. Both students are hard-working, but one was encouraged/supported/nurtured much more than the other.

But none of that is a flaw of the VCE system, more so a consequence of the circumstances of one's birth, which are uncontrollable. But I can kind of understand why a lot of people get frustrated when they don't get the results they thought their hard work was equivalent to at the end of year 12.

I know for a fact that most kids in my year and other years  that did LOTE - either german or jap - said that the major or the sole reason they did it was for the extra scaling boost. This is one of the unfair things in vce - this is being completey abused. Im pretty sure each year german and jap scale by at least 8 or 9 or even more just because the government want more people knowing languages. I like the governments thinking but its being abused by people already admitting that they probs wont use it later in life.

[brenden]

Okay, fine.
I suppose it really is slack teachers and lazy students who can't study but can distract other students. The whole environment can be overwhelming. I'm sure any student can perform badly if they are going to a bad school long enough.
I'm just interested if you are an average student or a smart student going to very bad school, how can you still do well if you also don't have a conducive study environment at home as well.

You're only limited to your own creativity. Home was a fucking shit place to do homework for me; at Mum's house I had my brother screaming at his Xbox "FUCKING HACKERS FOR FUCK SAKE OMG FUCKING HACKS BR0" - not exactly the best place to write essays. And yeah Dad's wasn't great either, I'd have to listen to my step Mum walking around the house and shit. Never had any study space, either. So yeah home study was a bitch. School was actually alright in class. My school used to be 'very bad' so I know what you're talking about fully, but I'm a very independent learner, I never really did much in class. I'd just kick back, relax, and wait til it was over so I could start doing my work. Simple solution, really - I just stayed at school until the cleaner kicked me out. Everyone rushed to get out of school as soon as the bell rang, so in ten minutes the school was deserted. Very quiet. Nice place to study. Otherwise you could just go to the library, go to a Macca's - I did this one semi-frequently, shit you could go to a local cafe and sit yourself down. If you have enough drive, you can do anything. It's just harder.

[bully3000]

You're only limited to your own creativity. Home was a fucking shit place to do homework for me; at Mum's house I had my brother screaming at his Xbox "FUCKING HACKERS FOR FUCK SAKE OMG FUCKING HACKS BR0" - not exactly the best place to write essays. And yeah Dad's wasn't great either, I'd have to listen to my step Mum walking around the house and shit. Never had any study space, either. So yeah home study was a bitch. School was actually alright in class. My school used to be 'very bad' so I know what you're talking about fully, but I'm a very independent learner, I never really did much in class. I'd just kick back, relax, and wait til it was over so I could start doing my work. Simple solution, really - I just stayed at school until the cleaner kicked me out. Everyone rushed to get out of school as soon as the bell rang, so in ten minutes the school was deserted. Very quiet. Nice place to study. Otherwise you could just go to the library, go to a Macca's - I did this one semi-frequently, shit you could go to a local cafe and sit yourself down. If you have enough drive, you can do anything. It's just harder.

What did/do your parents do for a living?

[b^3]

You're only limited to your own creativity. Home was a fucking shit place to do homework for me; at Mum's house I had my brother screaming at his Xbox "FUCKING HACKERS FOR FUCK SAKE OMG FUCKING HACKS BR0" - not exactly the best place to write essays. And yeah Dad's wasn't great either, I'd have to listen to my step Mum walking around the house and shit. Never had any study space, either. So yeah home study was a bitch. School was actually alright in class. My school used to be 'very bad' so I know what you're talking about fully, but I'm a very independent learner, I never really did much in class. I'd just kick back, relax, and wait til it was over so I could start doing my work. Simple solution, really - I just stayed at school until the cleaner kicked me out. Everyone rushed to get out of school as soon as the bell rang, so in ten minutes the school was deserted. Very quiet. Nice place to study. Otherwise you could just go to the library, go to a Macca's - I did this one semi-frequently, shit you could go to a local cafe and sit yourself down. If you have enough drive, you can do anything. It's just harder.

This, +1.

[brenden]

What did/do your parents do for a living?

My Mum works in welfare as a case-worker in a St. Kilda detox clinic and my Dad is a labourer.

[watto_22]

I know for a fact that most kids in my year and other years  that did LOTE - either german or jap - said that the major or the sole reason they did it was for the extra scaling boost. This is one of the unfair things in vce - this is being completey abused. Im pretty sure each year german and jap scale by at least 8 or 9 or even more just because the government want more people knowing languages. I like the governments thinking but its being abused by people already admitting that they probs wont use it later in life.

Yes the Vic government does add +4 to each LOTE, but the rest of that 8 or 9 markup is due entirely to the strength of the cohort; so it's hardly right to say that languages scale so much 'just because the government want more people knowing languages'

I think the scaling is ok, but I still question how/why study scores should ever be >50

[pi]

I think the scaling is ok, but I still question how/why study scores should ever be >50

Well, to take an example, I don't think a person deserves the same scaled score if person A got a 50 raw in Further and person B got a 50 raw in Spesh, when the two subjects are miles and miles apart with the latter being much harder (on general consensus).

Having said that, I'd like to see more subjects scale above 50.

[michak]

Well, to take an example, I don't think a person deserves the same scaled score if person A got a 50 raw in Further and person B got a 50 raw in Spesh, when the two subjects are miles and miles apart with the latter being much harder (on general consensus).

Having said that, I'd like to see more subjects scale above 50.

What other subjects?

[pi]

What other subjects?

Going by what I said above, I think Methods should be scaled higher (maybe maxed at 52 or something?), possibly Lit (being the "higher" English). Not sure on others, but I'm sure there are others which could as well.