SEAS Debate

[MJRomeo81]

Wtf Stick is correct... What's with all the negativity?

It's bullshit how you can apply for SEAS with some bullshit story and then instead of having to get 99 to get into biomedicine at Melbourne, you can just pull off a 95 or 96 and get in.

Pull off a 95 or 96? You make it sound as if that's kids stuff.

And let's say you go to a public school and you feel as though you're at a 'disadvantage' compared to say, my school or Melbourne High. That's the way it should be. With Melbourne High, you've had to put in the work to be selected into that school, and with my school, you've had to fork out the fees to go there.

This is a ridiculous statement. Have you ever experienced a low rank public school? So you're saying just because your parents forked out the fees to attend a specific school, that automatically entitles you to biomedicine at melb ahead of a student who scored 95 ATAR but suffered academically due to a poor environment/financial background?

Do this: Print out a copy of your post, ball it up, and throw it at your own forehead, because that's what I would do if I were there.

[simpak]

Although I agree with SEAS as a concept I do feel that some critera, such as the youth allowance one above, are not entirely sound reasons for somebody to use SEAS. For instance, sitting in the room next to my younger brother right now who basically does fuck all work and he is in Year 12 at a private school. If I see him try and use SEAS because my mum gets FTB on his behalf, I will punch him in the face. That would be an abuse of the system.

That said the vast majority of people using SEAS deserve to use it.

[ferrsal]

It's bullshit how you can apply for SEAS with some bullshit story and then instead of having to get 99 to get into biomedicine at Melbourne, you can just pull off a 95 or 96 and get in.

Although yes, some people may be 'disadvantaged', I sometimes feel as though the 'bonus' they're given is blown out of proportion compared to their actual 'disadvantage'.

And let's say you go to a public school and you feel as though you're at a 'disadvantage' compared to say, my school or Melbourne High. That's the way it should be. With Melbourne High, you've had to put in the work to be selected into that school, and with my school, you've had to fork out the fees to go there.

But yes, I'll rephrase what Stick is saying.
SEAS is blown out of proportion.

Dude every time you post something it's highly provocative and/or offensive. I think you just need to calm down a bit. 

[deleted]

[simpak]

Can I ask a non-related question for a moment, just trying to clarify something?  Am I correct in thinking that if the ATAR score for courses with 'more leeway' for fluctuations in entry scores per year, like Arts or Science, increases the SEAS guaranteed cutoff remains at the same score?  We're seeing an increase in the scores required for both courses for non-SEAS applications so I was just wondering if Access Melbourne guarantee cut-offs increase to the same degree or at all with that increase or are they always 78 despite fluctuations?

[Professor Polonsky]

From memory, being in receipt of FTB:A is sufficient to qualify for financial disadvantage, no matter how much you receive, which is inappropriate and not ideal.

Your memory is correct, and completely agreed.

I think the main problem with SEAS is that, quite simply, it's not a perfect system. As was discussed on the IRC channel, it's extremely difficult (impossible) to quantify disadvantage, and as such some people are given too much (or not enough) of a boost by it.

I'm one year off from being eligible for Access Melbourne on the basis of a non-English speaking background, which imho is utter bullshit. I'm sure there are people far more disadvantaged who do not have access to it.

[Russ]

The guarantee is set a year in advance; whether they change it for 2014 entry based on 2013 demand is up to the university, but in the 1 year so far, they haven't.

[simpak]

I see!  Thanks for clearing that up Russ, I was just wondering.

[abcdqdxD]

It's a possibility but I doubt anyone who's able to attain a scholarship at a private school, or any other school for that matter, would require SEAS to properly get into the university course they want.

Why wouldn't you apply for SEAS if you were entitled to it? How smart you are is irrelevant.

[deleted]

Why wouldn't you apply for SEAS if you were entitled to it? How smart you are is irrelevant.

Yeah you're right, that statement I made was probably incorrect.

But trust me, I'm willing to bet most if not all of those people applying for financial disadvantage at a private school would've been abusing the system.

It's all good, everybody knows that not everything in life is made to be fair.

[Belgarion]

It's a possibility but I doubt anyone who's able to attain a scholarship at a private school, or any other school for that matter, would require SEAS to properly get into the university course they want.

Anyway, all of this is opinion based, but even if a kid with SEAS doesn't study he still won't get into a decent university course.
A lot of people like me see SEAS as an 'unfair disadvantage' but it may be because we haven't been exposed to everything that SEAS has to offer and how the SEAS process even works.

Just the fact that I clearly saw someone at a private school in recent times apply for financial disadvantage kinda didn't make any sense at all. And while reading other threads and posts over the past few weeks, I've seen a lot of people talking about SEAS, so it seemed like such an easy 'advantage' to 'receive'.

Plus reading the fact that anyone can simply apply for the youth allowance and pretend to be 'financially disadvantaged' kinda exacerbated my thoughts.

But it's all good, although I'm still gonna consider Biomedicine, Science seems like the better choice for me now.

Thanks everyone. :-)

i really find your comments insulting. Its not ok for financially disadvantaged people to get into a course we have worked really hard to get into but it is ok for kids who come from a wealthy background to apply for things like youth allowance and a csp?

No one can just apply for SEAS. In order to get youth allowance in the first place your parents aren't allowed to be earning allowed. I've had to suffer with unemployed parents due to their disabilities and have had to provide everything myself. I work hard, i got into biomedicine at melbourne through SEAS b/c i missed out by a few tenths of a point. Its always what i wanted to do and i worked hard for it and i see people (mainly previously from private schools) taking it for granted(albeit there are those few who work just as hard and deserve it).

You say those from public schools are unfairly getting SEAS, even though i know for a fact that most need it as i have met a lot of these people, yet people at your school are on youth allowance? I find that extremely disturbed and hypocritical. You need to pull your finger out and watch what you say.

[EspoirTron]

Wtf Stick is correct... What's with all the negativity?

It's bullshit how you can apply for SEAS with some bullshit story and then instead of having to get 99 to get into biomedicine at Melbourne, you can just pull off a 95 or 96 and get in.

Although yes, some people may be 'disadvantaged', I sometimes feel as though the 'bonus' they're given is blown out of proportion compared to their actual 'disadvantage'.

And let's say you go to a public school and you feel as though you're at a 'disadvantage' compared to say, my school or Melbourne High. That's the way it should be. With Melbourne High, you've had to put in the work to be selected into that school, and with my school, you've had to fork out the fees to go there.

But yes, I'll rephrase what Stick is saying.
SEAS is blown out of proportion.

Okay.
I am going to say this.
SEAS may be used by some 'unfairly'. Personally I'm offended by your last statement because simply that seems like to me you're putting down people who just can't fork out what is it $20,000 a year. So you're telling me it's wrong for me to go apply for SEAS because my parents wage isn't enough to put me in an 'elite' private school? $20,000 is no child's play, essentially school fees at private schools can be the wage of a single parent (I know that). Yeah sure I didn't try out for Melbourne High and that was my decision, it's far from my house and at that age the idea of going to an all boys school, was something I was uncomfortable with. May I also add how you thinks it 'not on' that people can get into biomed with 95 or 96 and SEAS, 95 or 96 is the top 4-5% of the state and that is in no way something easy.
Disadvantage is serious and kids who deserve it should get it. It's not like you can just say "Hey I think I'm disadvantaged, please give me SEAS" no it doesn't work like that, there is a process and it's not 'easy'. The negativity arises when people claim that it's A COMPLETE EXPLOITATION, so what do you propose we take it out and the kids who suffer, we can just shatter their dreams? Some people would make great doctors, lawyers, pharmacists, teachers or any profession but for a reason they faced great struggle in year 12, VTAC or whoever organizes it, has recognized this and allowed an opportunity for these people. Have some form of pity for them, it's wrong to call the whole system an 'exploitation'. You put apostrophe around the word disadvantage I don't know what you were doing there but again I wouldn't go around saying 'it's blown out of proportion' without actually knowing what these students suffer through and come out the other end.
That 95 or 96 you talk about, is in my eyes amazing that through their struggle they managed to produce such an amazing score. Infact they are an inspiration and those should be the faces on The Age and Herald Sun on results day because they truly do symbolize success through  struggle.
So please, next time you're going to go and make such generalizations think about first the people you will offend and secondly the people who actually and truly deserve it because they have suffered so much pain and torment.

[Russ]

[sic]No one can just apply for SEAS. In order to get youth allowance in the first place your parents aren't allowed to be earning allowed.

As I pointed out before, this isn't true. FTB:A as a measure for "financial disadvantage" is not ideal, because you can receive it whilst not being at any particular disadvantage, given the way it scales

[deleted]

2smart4u.

I'm not saying they're unfairly getting SEAS, but the fact is that it's blown out of proportion...
And the fact that kids at my school can get FINANCIALLY DISADVANTAGED SEAS is why it's messed up. I'm against that.
And I honestly have no idea how they're eligible for this category, which is why I'm against it.

I understand that yes, there are undoubtedly people who are truly disadvantaged and truly deserve SEAS, but the fact that there are people abusing it is annoying me.


And kezzab, here's my response.

I know that $20,000 isn't child's play. There's plenty of other students at private schools whose parents sacrifice shitloads of things in order to send them there.
I'm not going to lie and say I'm one of them, but I'll tell you this, my parents constantly remind me of the fees they pay for my little brother and me to attend a private school. I know that these fees put a decent amount of pressure on my parents, but it's nothing they can't handle.

I'm gonna go and tell you this.
My parents came over to Australia from Vietnam less than 35 years ago with basically nothing, and now, in 2013, I'm sitting here typing this up.
My parents worked unbelievably hard throughout their lives so that they could get to where they are now.
Both their kids attending a private school, a decent home, decent lives.
All of this after coming to Australia with close to nothing, not even being able to speak English. They attended year 10/11 as soon as they immigrated here.
Decent effort, right? Not bad for beginning with a real disadvantage.

Now it's my turn, and the fact that my parents have spent plenty of money on my school fees to enable me the best possible opportunity to do well at school and then there are those few who exploit the system and gain an advantage that they obviously do not deserve.

I know what a true disadvantage is, and I know that there'll always be others less fortunate than others, and yes, SEAS is a great system with great intentions, but in my opinion, there are still a crapload of things that needs to be changed.

[EspoirTron]

2smart4u.

I'm not saying they're unfairly getting SEAS, but the fact is that it's blown out of proportion...
And the fact that kids at my school can get FINANCIALLY DISADVANTAGED SEAS is why it's messed up. I'm against that.
And I honestly have no idea how they're eligible for this category, which is why I'm against it.

I understand that yes, there are undoubtedly people who are truly disadvantaged and truly deserve SEAS, but the fact that there are people abusing it is annoying me.


And kezzab, here's my response.

I know that $20,000 isn't child's play. There's plenty of other students at private schools whose parents sacrifice shitloads of things in order to send them there.
I'm not going to lie and say I'm one of them, but I'll tell you this, my parents constantly remind me of the fees they pay for my little brother and me to attend a private school. I know that these fees put a decent amount of pressure on my parents, but it's nothing they can't handle.

I'm gonna go and tell you this.
My parents came over to Australia from Vietnam less than 35 years ago with basically nothing, and now, in 2013, I'm sitting here typing this up.
My parents worked unbelievably hard throughout their lives so that they could get to where they are now.
Both their kids attending a private school, a decent home, decent lives.
All of this after coming to Australia with close to nothing, not even being able to speak English. They attended year 10/11 as soon as they immigrated here.
Decent effort, right? Not bad for beginning with a real disadvantage.

Now it's my turn, and the fact that my parents have spent plenty of money on my school fees to enable me the best possible opportunity to do well at school and then there are those few who exploit the system and gain an advantage that they obviously do not deserve.

I know what a true disadvantage is, and I know that there'll always be others less fortunate than others, and yes, SEAS is a great system with great intentions, but in my opinion, there are still a crapload of things that needs to be changed.

You're right that is a real disadvantage and I have the highest respect for your parents because they pushed through a struggle for you and your little brother. That is truly something commendable.
However, what I am saying is your aforementioned comments were offensive and generalized. I'm sorry to say this but I don't think you have the authority to generalize the way you did, those comments were highly offensive (to me at least) and the matter of the fact is yes the system can be exploited but a change I don't think can happen overnight and that's something that will take I believe VTAC some time to fix.
All I am saying is please, don't go out and make generalizations in the manner you did, I suggest you go and read your comments to see what I mean: if you don't believe me that is.