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Investment Banking
Gekko:
Thanks for the responses guys.
TT, Just asking on behalf of a friend that also wants to break into IB: He got a respectable ATAR (99.xx) but dropped off in sem1 and didn't come to any lectures etc thinking he could just wing it as it's sem 1. He says he's going to pick up the slack in sem2 (hopefully he does!). For internship applications next year, they'll only have access to year 1 (sem1+2) marks right? How would he stand given his 65 average for sem1 if he manages a 85-90 average like he says he will?
Some questions on my behalf:
How do you recommend I go about staying upto date regarding market events? Would reading the big articles on the AFR and Bloomberg every day or every other day at this stage suffice?
Also, do you think I should do a JD after BCom to increase my chances of getting an offer? I met a few Analysts in IB at some events in sem1 and most of them had done comm/law at monash or melbourne (when they offered the undergrad degree).
Also, is there any way I could get an offer from a London/NY office? I want to live in the US eventually
Thanks a lot
TrueTears:
--- Quote from: Gekko on August 01, 2013, 08:28:40 pm ---TT, Just asking on behalf of a friend that also wants to break into IB: He got a respectable ATAR (99.xx) but dropped off in sem1 and didn't come to any lectures etc thinking he could just wing it as it's sem 1. He says he's going to pick up the slack in sem2 (hopefully he does!). For internship applications next year, they'll only have access to year 1 (sem1+2) marks right? How would he stand given his 65 average for sem1 if he manages a 85-90 average like he says he will?
--- End quote ---
I assume he is also doing BComm (3 year course)? Although most IB firms say these internships are for pen. year students, the reality is, alot of honours/masters/PhD students apply as well, the competition is REALLY tough. It's not only the GPA/WAM that will count, because there are so many strong candidates, you need lists of awards/scholarships etc to stand out. Most of the strong honours/masters/PhD candidates will have this, they will have publications, alot of scholarships and awards (duxes etc), research scholarships etc, when you are in pen. year, you only have your grades to make you stand out. Compare this with an honours/masters candidate who has duxed their undergraduate, the latter will stand in a much more competitive position than the former. Lifting your WAM to 85-90 will make you competitive but it is nowhere enough to ensure a position as almost all the other top candidates will also have a similar WAM, so what separates these people?
1. List as much awards/scholarships you've received, especially if you've duxed units/courses.
2. If you're applying for quant positions (FICC, equities, markets etc), consider doing summer research projects in mathematics/statistics to show that you have a strong quantitative background.
3. Many of the people who get these top quant positions study mathematics/physics/computer science/engineering etc, so consider doing some mathematics units as part of your BComm breadth so that screeners can see on your transcript that you have the mathematical abilities.
4. Work experience/Extra curricular activities matter to an extent, but this is only after considering your academic results, without having a solid academic background, screeners will most of the time disregard your work experience/extra curricular activities.
--- Quote from: Gekko on August 01, 2013, 08:28:40 pm ---How do you recommend I go about staying upto date regarding market events? Would reading the big articles on the AFR and Bloomberg every day or every other day at this stage suffice?
--- End quote ---
Yes, read AFR/Bloomberg, you should also follow business spectator and stock markets review and remember to copy and save any important articles for future reference. A friend of mine who has gotten into IBD has read over thousands of articles to prepare for his interviews.
--- Quote from: Gekko on August 01, 2013, 08:28:40 pm ---Also, is there any way I could get an offer from a London/NY office? I want to live in the US eventually
--- End quote ---
Yes definitely! You can select to apply for US/London offices during your application process, check up on the due dates though, I only really know the Asian Pacific dates lol
--- Quote from: Gekko on August 01, 2013, 08:28:40 pm ---Also, do you think I should do a JD after BCom to increase my chances of getting an offer? I met a few Analysts in IB at some events in sem1 and most of them had done comm/law at monash or melbourne (when they offered the undergrad degree).
--- End quote ---
Because I am only knowledgeable in the quant positions, I'd say a MSc in mathematics/statistics or double degree in Science/Com or replace Sci with any mathematically related fields will put you in a good position for quant roles.
appianway:
I know a little bit about this because a significant number of my peers are going into IBD (and junior recruitment here starts in a month, and I'm *completely* undecided as to whether I'll apply or not because the applications are a lot of effort and I don't know what I'm doing with my life...).
I can only comment for Wall St and what things are like in the US. But here are some thoughts.
1) Prestige matters. Prestige matters a lot. In the US, the universities which are regarded as top targets are Wharton (the business school at Penn), Harvard, Yale and Princeton. It's even questionable whether MIT is regarded as a target because the ethos and curricular requirements don't develop students in areas aside from science. In the US, students from other universities who even want to stand a chance have to network like crazy. Even most Yale students I know have informational interviews and so on with alumni.
2) Be strong quantitatively. Take more math and logic classes than what's required. Make sure you can do that. If you want a quant role, you really should be able to code fluently with C++ and python and be aware of the data structures. Also, keep up your mental math.
3) Know the finance backdrop. That goes without saying.
4) Make sure that you can demonstrate people skills and leadership skills. Being in a club is not enough; being highly involved in a club is an experience worth putting on a resume. I'm really unsure of what I'll do after graduation, and I met with someone at the careers center today and his advice was that simply being in a club is worthless; being president of a club is worth noting. The standards are high. One of my friends has been president of one of the biggest organizations here and has also served in the military in the middle east as a translator. He's doing an internship at a mid range BB but not at a top BB.
I'm honestly not sure how much the academic background matters in terms of grades and awards (IBD seems to care less about academics than MC). Maybe it's because if I apply, I'll be applying through Yale and everyone has a lot of awards from high school graduation and external scholarships. But only put on awards for things that are relevant (did you top an investment or a modelling class?) or something that's interesting (at my meeting today, my adviser said that I should keep my hobbies section because of some of the people I'd performed for). All of the academics said, over here, Ivy League students generally need to maintain a 3.5/4.0 GPA to even be considered, and to be considered for a first round interview for larger banks, you generally need a 3.7. Apparently it doesn't matter too much beyond there.
5) You need to create a story. If you do investment banking, you'll be working 90 hours a week so your coworkers will be around you a lot. They need to like you at the interview, so you need to be interesting and easy to get along with. In addition, you need to have a convincing reason for why you want to do investment banking and why the path that you have taken has led you to this in terms of skills and experiences.
6) Think about where you want to work. Which offices support which industries? If you're fluent in an Asian language, it might be worth considering locations such as Hong Kong, as the sector is more vibrant there than in Australia.
To whoever asked about whether they can get a NYC offer from Australia, the answer is that it's very unlikely from Australia (though it may be possible to transfer branches), at least for a top bank. This is for a few reasons:
-Many of the positions at top tier banks are filled with former interns. As someone on the Australian academic calendar, these will fall during your semester. In addition, firms are unlikely to pay to fly you across the world for the interview even though they fly American candidates across the country.
-It's harder to network from the other side of the world.
-In the US, and especially in banking and consulting, pedigree counts for almost everything to break into the industry. Melbourne University and Monash University are barely known in the US (though they're better known in Asia). These firms barely recruit outside of the Ivy League, and when they do, the students are absolutely extraordinary and have the odds stacked against them. The banks recruit here on campus - there are information sessions, bankers take out promising students to restaurants, the interviews are held on campus, you wine and dine with interviewers. Most of the hiring is through on campus recruitment, and even so, most of the hiring is from a very select number of schools. Prestige matters a lot when breaking into Wall St. It's harsh, but it's true. Things would probably be different if you're an established professional, but I assume that we're talking about entry level hires here.
Gekko:
Thanks so much for your responses, guys.
It looks as though I'm going to have some difficulty getting into IB straight out of commerce.
I am pretty hard-working though so hopefully I can achieve and maintain and 85-90+ average during my degree. I'll henceforth start reading articles on a daily basis. The Australian market is infinitely niche on a global scale so should I aim to have an in-depth working knowledge of the major players around the world? American, Asian, European markets etc.
A guy in my course is claiming to have secured the only cadetship available at GS. What's interesting is that he mentioned that he got it like 4 weeks into the first semester of our first year. I haven't been able to find anything on the internet about cadetships at GS and have never heard of them offering that. Do you know if there could be any truth to this?
Also, what would you guys suggest as a back-up plan? I'm going to be applying for the Melbourne JD because I kind of want to go to law school anyway. Then perhaps if I still can't get a full-time IB offer straight out of IB I could (among wondering why I couldn't get an offer again) go into M&A law and then try to jump ship into IB.
I'm just really confused at this point.
appianway:
IBD is super competitive. However, you seem smart, so there's no reason why you don't have a chance. I don't know how recruitment works in Australia, but I can't see why a 90 average would be too low. It wouldn't be the top commerce grade, but it would show that you're smart enough for the job, and beyond there, I'd assume other things matter more.
I spoke briefly to a friend who was doing a banking internship in Australia and the sectors in Australia seemed pretty small (mostly real estate and resources? I don't really remember). At the very least, make sure you understand those. Australia is pretty closely integrated into Asia, so you must understand the Asian markets at the very least, but that would also require an understanding of the American economy because China and Japan (and some other countries) are major stakeholders in America's current account deficit. In addition, China is trying to switch from an export oriented economy to an import economy (so that it can be more sustainable) and a large part of that relates to the EU's economic crisis, given that the EU recently overtook the US as the largest market for Chinese goods. I think you get the picture; the economies around the world are connected.
I'm certainly not one to give career advice about back ups, but think about why you want to do IBD. What about it sounds engaging? Which skills do you want to use? What about it would be fulfilling? If you can figure this out, you can figure out what back ups would be acceptable.
In terms of careers, my own case is probably very different but it might provide some insight. Until about a month ago, I was 100% sure that I was going to pursue academia in experimental physics. However, I then realized that I don't enjoy working with my hands or heavy machinery and that this work doesn't come as naturally to me as theoretical work does. I also don't enjoy pure mathematics, so that restricts me to applied physics in a computational sense, which is OK. Unfortunately this work is a lot more competitive than experimental work, and while I feel confident that I could be in the <20% of computational physicists who do actually get a job, I'm not sure where that job would be (middle of Iowa? no thanks) or when I would get it (three postdocs? no thanks). Academia has some wonderful features that I think I'd love (the flexibility to be creative once you reach a certain point, to ask questions if funding permits, to teach others) but also some drawbacks (horrible remuneration for the 6 years of your PhD and mediocre pay for your postdoc, as well as lack of geographic flexibility).
As a consequence, I'm now considering a range of professions that fit with my skills and interests. I have strong quantitative and analytical skills, and enjoy this type of work a lot. In addition, I've been doing lab work, tour guide work and tutoring work over the last few weeks, and the work I enjoy the most is the tour guide stuff and tutoring. I've interpreted this as the fact that I really want to work with people - be it teaching, collaborating or presenting.
So now I'm considering a range of different things and am open to exploring all of them to get a better idea of what might fit me well. These options include a PhD in computational geophysics (probably seismology), consulting, IBD, trading and tech business (including start ups). My suggestion for back ups would be to look at what type of work you enjoy and consider industries that seem to be a good fit. Consider the possibility that you might never get into IBD even if you try (I'm not saying you won't, but it's good to have options!). In that case, what would you like to do?
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