[offtopic split] Egalitariansm + feminism + related topics

[Ballerina]

For some reason I thought of the Dead Poets Society, but instead of reading poems in this room, a women's liberation movement is organised.

We just braid each other's hair and discuss the colour pink!

To be fair, there is an obvious stigma against those groups of people. You still hear people at uni say "lol that's so g*y" as an insult, and mature age students get bagged as a stereotype. I understand why they may want their own space, that's obvious, that's fine.

I honestly don't understand how the same can be applied to women at uni.

Also, I'm not upset, just utterly confused at this waste of resources. And if there was a room for men I'd feel the same way (loljks there is, it's called the Engineering department).

...pi, you not realizing that female university students are discriminated against (bearing in mind that 18-29 year old women are the most sexualized individuals in society) is why there is a women's room. While walking to the 7/11 adjacent to campus today I was told I'd look great on all fours. I enjoy not hearing that in the women's room. And yes, there have been a number of incidences where women were assaulted on university grounds, indecently groped by lecturers (hello, Ormond College scandal), and asked out on dates by far older lecturers.

The reason you don't understand why it's there is because you've never actually been present in the women's room or asked what occurs there - but you have presumed. I'm sorry you consider domestic violence support groups, sexual assault support groups, information dispersion on networking and educational opportunities to increase the number of women in underrrepresented fields, and internship opportunities for political science majors (women are half of Australia's population and less than one third of all parliamentarians in Australian parliaments, according to the pamphlet up there) among other things, a waste of resources. And group meetings to discuss individual issues such as fundraising for awareness of women in the world who aren't allowed to leave their homes without a male, eating disorders, body dysmorphia, the pressure someone felt to discontinue her education because her father was against it due to their customs. A male informing females that they don't experience discrimination and that their experiences of discrimination are invalid is why people plan campaigning schedules in that room. Because we don't want to slip backward.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[pi]

I'm never going to say there isn't discrimination against females (there's discrimination against /everyone/), but in relation to the post I quoted, I don't think it's to the same extent as homosexuals or mature age students in the uni atmosphere. Sure, there is probably more discrimination against females than males, but I actually wasn't addressing that in my post.

Either way, I'm not convinced. Sure there are a lot of seedy as fuck guys out there and it's a shame a disgusting sexual slur was thrown your way, but I don't think having a room solves any of those issues (ie. men being dickheads). I'm usually in favour of positive discrimination when it comes to women and minority groups (such as Indigenous Australians), but this just over the top. To be completely honest, I interpret it as a sign of admitting some sort of non-existent "inferiority" rather than actively combating the myths, it's sort of like "we need this room because the males outside scare us (in some way)". Clearly that is NOT true given your post, but it's the impression I (and others) get, and it's an impression that's hard to rub off.

And please, all of those things can occur outside of a dedicated "Women's room" (...and they do and have done for years), saying that I implied all of those to be a "waste" is a horrible skewing of my post. And, if your answer to getting more females into high profile jobs is for females already there to hire them, then you're not really any better than men doing the same thing. If I had a solution, that would certainly not be part of it.

I don't really buy into the parliamentarian debate. We've had a female PM (who my family voted for as a member of her electorate), we've had a female deputy PM, we've had a female Governor General, and so forth. Sure, we haven't had an "equal amount" yet, but that will change with time. And in fact, I'm not sure we even need to have an "equal" gender balance in parliament, we just need the best people to put their hands up for the job. Hopefully given the high profile success of late, more women will put their hands up and we'll have some better representation (ad surely more can be done to ensure this happens). But we don't need to "aim" for a statistical figure when it comes to elected positions imo, that defeats the purpose of the election.

[Ballerina]

I'm never going to say there isn't discrimination against females (there's discrimination against /everyone/), but in relation to the post I quoted, I don't think it's to the same extent as homosexuals or mature age students in the uni atmosphere. Sure, there is probably more discrimination against females than males, but I actually wasn't addressing that in my post.

As someone who hasn't identified yet as homosexual, a mature age student, or as a female, I'm sure it's difficult for you to observe.  'Probably'. You were.
annesummers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Gender-Equality-Stats-2009.doc
http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/c311215.nsf/web/Gender

Either way, I'm not convinced. Sure there are a lot of seedy as fuck guys out there and it's a shame a disgusting sexual slur was thrown your way, but I don't think having a room solves any of those issues (ie. men being dickheads). I'm usually in favour of positive discrimination when it comes to women and minority groups (such as Indigenous Australians), but this just over the top. To be completely honest, I interpret it as a sign of admitting some sort of non-existent "inferiority" rather than actively combating the myths, it's sort of like "we need this room because the males outside scare us (in some way)". Clearly that is NOT true given your post, but it's the impression I (and others) get, and it's an impression that's hard to rub off.

Except that you weren't in that situation, you'll never be subjected to those situations on a daily basis, and so you'll never understand how supportive that room is. A small cramped room that accommodates about 7 people comfortably, maximum, is not 'over the top'. And  rape and violence against women statistics are something to be afraid of, but I've explained why the room is there in great length with multiple examples. Certainly not all males interpret the issue that way, and that's why several males have defended the issue. If you and others continued to interpret it in an incorrect fashion, then the problem is with perspective. If someone interprets my shorts in the middle of a 40 degree summer as a mating signal to ask me how I am in bed, the onus isn't on me to change his perspective. Homosexuality has stigma, and evidently so does feminism.

And please, all of those things can occur outside of a dedicated "Women's room" (...and they do and have done for years), saying that I implied all of those to be a "waste" is a horrible skewing of my post. And, if your answer to getting more females into high profile jobs is for females already there to hire them, then you're not really any better than men doing the same thing. If I had a solution, that would certainly not be part of it.

They can. An even better idea, since these meetings are regular and these experiences are common, are to place them all in an office or location which can store all of the data and related inventory, that is about half the size of my bedroom. ...No, there are plenty of male dominated companies and employers who advertise internships, and those are passed onto the women's room. At no point was that implied. There are definitely not enough female dominated companies in Australia to offer that level of support.

I don't really buy into the parliamentarian debate. We've had a female PM (who my family voted for as a member of her electorate), we've had a female deputy PM, we've had a female Governor General, and so forth. Sure, we haven't had an "equal amount" yet, but that will change with time. And in fact, I'm not sure we even need to have an "equal" gender balance in parliament, we just need the best people to put their hands up for the job. Hopefully given the high profile success of late, more women will put their hands up and we'll have some better representation (ad surely more can be done to ensure this happens). But we don't need to "aim" for a statistical figure when it comes to elected positions imo, that defeats the purpose of the election.

...It is very statistically unlikely that the 'best' people are consistently overwhelming male.  And yes, it will change in time, because there are places like the women's room which campaign for that change.

I really hope that further experience will make these same points, tediously rehashed in this thread over and over, easier to conceive over time.

[Sense]

I'm all for feminism, but let's face it, the majority of 'feminists' want superiority not equality. They face NO legal inequality, the pay gap can be easily explained by surveys and statistics that show they don't pursue higher paying jobs and money is lower on their priorities when it comes to career choices at a younger age. They still complain whilst men actually face legal inequality such as not being able to see their children and being charged with sexual related crimes with absolutely no evidence. Yes, they face inequality in society, I realise that there are dick heads who shout at them from their car and use their gender as a way to attack them, but 99% of people face the same thing in someway, whether it be for weight, sexuality, race, mental state etc.

The whole feminism movement has pretty much made it okay to attack men in every way to compensate for their 'inequality'. I don't know if many people here watch the morning shows, but when they have the shitty embarrassing 'girls on the grill' segments AKA 10 minutes to complain about how unfair being a woman is by giving as much shit to men as possible, and they literally just degrade men and pretty much label them as selfish, violent, sexual deviants. If they singled out a certain race or any other type of group and did this to them, it would be labeled as hate and they would make the front of the newspaper and be the assholes for the week.

I just think you're way too narrow minded and unaware if you have to sprout around how much of a feminist you are, why not just call it equality or gender equality?

/rantover

Woah, I sounded a bit aggressive reading that back to myself, I just can't stand people who're fighting for equality and only causing more inequality and doing nothing else. Again, I'm 100% for women's rights and equality, I just don't agree with the majority of feminists, and I also do understand that there are reasonable, rational thinking 'feminists' out there.

PS. I know this isn't really on topic with the conversation, the word feminism in the title just annoyed me.

[Ballerina]

...Hahahahaha. You're conflating some forms of radical feminism/anarcha-feminism, which are associated with misandry and hurts equality more than it could ever help it, with conventional feminism, for which the literal definition is equality. I know that medicine rejections come out around this time and people are feeling tense, especially if their GPAs are weak, but it's not justification for generalizations and statements that are so clearly untrue, I'm not sure I can dignify answering them.

I give up on this thread, which I actually tried to in the first post before being made OP.  It's really disappointing to see so much implicit sexism this easily uncovered among left-wing university students in Australia, by a little room in Union House. It's a great example of why it's there.

I'm all for feminism, but let's face it, the majority of 'feminists' want superiority not equality. They face NO legal inequality, the pay gap can be easily explained by surveys and statistics that show they don't pursue higher paying jobs and money is lower on their priorities when it comes to career choices at a younger age. They still complain whilst men actually face legal inequality such as not being able to see their children and being charged with sexual related crimes with absolutely no evidence. Yes, they face inequality in society, I realise that there are dick heads who shout at them from their car and use their gender as a way to attack them, but 99% of people face the same thing in someway, whether it be for weight, sexuality, race, mental state etc.

The whole feminism movement has pretty much made it okay to attack men in every way to compensate for their 'inequality'. I don't know if many people here watch the morning shows, but when they have the shitty embarrassing 'girls on the grill' segments AKA 10 minutes to complain about how unfair being a woman is by giving as much shit to men as possible, and they literally just degrade men and pretty much label them as selfish, violent, sexual deviants. If they singled out a certain race or any other type of group and did this to them, it would be labeled as hate and they would make the front of the newspaper and be the assholes for the week.

I just think you're way too narrow minded and unaware if you have to sprout around how much of a feminist you are, why not just call it equality or gender equality?

/rantover

Woah, I sounded a bit aggressive reading that back to myself, I just can't stand people who're fighting for equality and only causing more inequality and doing nothing else. Again, I'm 100% for women's rights and equality, I just don't agree with the majority of feminists, and I also do understand that there are reasonable, rational thinking 'feminists' out there.

PS. I know this isn't really on topic with the conversation, the word feminism in the title just annoyed me.

[pi]

A small cramped room that accommodates about 7 people comfortably, maximum, is not 'over the top'.

I wasn't referring to the size of the room, I was referring to the simple *idea* of the room (the fact that there *is* a room) in comparison to a similar room for homosexuals and mature age students in the context of the uni atmosphere. I think it's pretty obvious that the latter groups are stigmatised more than the group of "females" at uni.

Your whole post (the aggressive tone is probably why so many people simply despise or dismiss any notion of feminism, it doesn't come off as a "nice" concept) stems from the idea that "if you haven't experienced it, you can't really talk about it". Yeah, that's pretty bullshit It's all great to say the onus to change is on everyone else when you guys are having your "power to women!" discussions and what-not in the room (which is /fine/), but that's actually not changing the behaviour of those allegedly discriminating against women, and hence not actually addressing the real issue. I think it's obvious that women want equality with men, but if you keep repeating that to yourself in a room (as your posts seem to suggest, that is the elephant in the room), that's not changing attitudes of "males".

Now, if the room was a place where anyone could come inside to talk about feminism, that'd be fine and may actually be doing something good by changing perceptions. But as it stands, I don't see how it makes a tangible difference to the real issues here.

And yes, it will change in time, because there are places like the women's room which campaign for that change.

Oh gosh, how could I miss the feminist music from the Women's Room advocating for this echoing all over campus? Oh, that's right, it's behind sealed doors.

-_- /sigh

[Ballerina]

  It's really disappointing to see so much implicit sexism this easily uncovered among left-wing university students in Australia, by a little room in Union House. It's a great example of why it's there.

[pi]

-_- /sigh

[Ballerina]

-_- /sigh

[pi]

Glad we agree on something

[Ballerina]

-_- /sigh

[Thu Thu Train]

We should just not have rooms everyone should just be outside 100% of the time /endthread

[pi]

Now that this is off-topic for an off-topic, can you explain this line to me?

I know that medicine rejections come out around this time and people are feeling tense, especially if their GPAs are weak, but it's not justification for generalizations and statements that are so clearly untrue, I'm not sure I can dignify answering them.

I didn't understand the relevance of it (medicine, GPAs, etc) to anything in this thread.

(Did I miss a Women's Room meeting where this type of coded language is used? :O)

We should just not have rooms everyone should just be outside 100% of the time /endthread

But... How can we address men hating on women outside? D: SOUNDS SCARY!

[Ballerina]

-_- /sigh

[Special At Specialist]

I'm all for feminism, but let's face it, the majority of 'feminists' want superiority not equality. They face NO legal inequality, the pay gap can be easily explained by surveys and statistics that show they don't pursue higher paying jobs and money is lower on their priorities when it comes to career choices at a younger age. They still complain whilst men actually face legal inequality such as not being able to see their children and being charged with sexual related crimes with absolutely no evidence. Yes, they face inequality in society, I realise that there are dick heads who shout at them from their car and use their gender as a way to attack them, but 99% of people face the same thing in someway, whether it be for weight, sexuality, race, mental state etc.

The whole feminism movement has pretty much made it okay to attack men in every way to compensate for their 'inequality'. I don't know if many people here watch the morning shows, but when they have the shitty embarrassing 'girls on the grill' segments AKA 10 minutes to complain about how unfair being a woman is by giving as much shit to men as possible, and they literally just degrade men and pretty much label them as selfish, violent, sexual deviants. If they singled out a certain race or any other type of group and did this to them, it would be labeled as hate and they would make the front of the newspaper and be the assholes for the week.

I just think you're way too narrow minded and unaware if you have to sprout around how much of a feminist you are, why not just call it equality or gender equality?

/rantover

I agree with this 100%