Melbourne Uni removing ENTER?!!

[Flaming_Arrow]

spoon fed. noun.vb. greek word JOKES. well, spoonfed basically means= students being given all the information needed for SACS and exams, being provided hints/details/answers for the sacs. I think it is also accused that pplz who are spoonfed have work done for them. Just my interpretation. They are given info JUST FOR EXAMS, that is, others are given extra info which isn;t exactly useful for exams, and isn't just needed for exams, thus disadvantaging them. And a lot of this interpreation isn't MY BELIEF, just what msot people define it as.

err i dont think so

i think spoonfed is when students are consistently pushed by teachers to do well, (eg. consistently checking if they have completed hw/assingments)

[mark_alec]

being provided hints/details/answers for the sacs.

A school providing hints to its students for SACs wouldn't advantage them compared to other schools. SACs are used to internally rank the cohort.

[Mao]

Spoonfeeding is when the teachers and all the resources students need on a silver platter, and the students just do the work that's handed down to them. They don't do extra research, they don't decide on what to learn/what to practice/what to read.

In uni, as opposed to being given resources, you suss them out yourself. You do your own research, you decide yourself on how deep you should understand a topic, you decide for yourself how to revise and study.

[xXNovaxX]

thanks for a perfect definition

[zzdfa]

Spoonfeeding is when the teachers and all the resources students need on a silver platter, and the students just do the work that's handed down to them. They don't do extra research, they don't decide on what to learn/what to practice/what to read.

lol it's like that in first year uni as well, tbh. For the units I've done, at least.

'Here's a list of all the topics we're going to cover. Here are 5 past exams (all same format). Don't worry about what I'm about to tell you in this lecture, it's not going to be on the exam.'  And here's a 4 page formula sheet with everything you need to know in the whole unit on it.

I think in the effort to 'ease' students into uni life, all they end up doing is put it off the real transition till 2nd/3rd year/later.

[kamil9876]

Spoonfeeding is when the teachers and all the resources students need on a silver platter, and the students just do the work that's handed down to them. They don't do extra research, they don't decide on what to learn/what to practice/what to read.

lol it's like that in first year uni as well, tbh. For the science units I've done, at least.

'Here's a list of all the topics we're going to cover. Here are 5 past exams (all same format). Don't worry about what I'm about to tell you in this lecture, it's not going to be on the exam.'  And here's a 4 page formula sheet with everything you need to know in the whole unit on it.

The further you go in your education, the more demanding your taste becomes, and education doesn't catch up whereas if your taste was more static(impossible really) it would

I endorse personal taste over education so yeah, all good

[zzdfa]

Yea not complaining
just disagreeing with Mao's statement:

Spoonfeeding is when the teachers and all the resources students need on a silver platter, and the students just do the work that's handed down to them. They don't do extra research, they don't decide on what to learn/what to practice/what to read.

In uni, as opposed to being given resources, you suss them out yourself. You do your own research, you decide yourself on how deep you should understand a topic, you decide for yourself how to revise and study.

I don't really think the level of 'spoonfeeding' really chnages from yr12 -> uni, I mean in yr12 you have syllabus' and past exams, and you can ask teachers for help when you need it. In uni you also have unit syllabus telling you exactly what you need to learn, and past exams, and professors are happy to help as well, and you can do great by just doing the work that's handed down to you.

[ninwa]

Lol sorry doboman, my post wasn't entirely directed at you but at the others who also used anecdotal evidence, or complained about "buying" an ENTER. Should've made that clear. I was not accusing you of whinging.

[ninwa]

So YOU believe that generally, kids from private schools have the same educational opportunities as those from public schools? Really?

What? Didn't I just say I felt we had better teachers? (though with the addendum that I wasn't sure whether that was purely a consequence of the school being private)

If you want to use personal anecdotes as evidence ... well, not a single one of the 200 or so people I went to high school with and with whom I still have some contact have yet dropped out of university. Many of them have HD and D averages. The only people I know who have dropped out of law attended public schools. Therefore, I proclaim that public schoolers have no independent learning skills. Can you see the logical fallacies in that conclusion, and therefore in your own anecdote-based generalisations?

You'll notice that I dismissed that argument [due to it being an extremely small part of my contention] as frivolous- so no need going there.

So why that massive article at the end of your post about how state schoolers do better in university?

Nice to know that parents think "fancy concert halls", "chapels", "overseas trips", "overpriced uniforms" and "FREE (yeh, that's what it is) music lessons" are worth $30K.

Lol you must be naive to think those free music lessons actually were free. How do you think the school is going to pay those music teachers if not out of the massive school fees?

Parents didn't think those fancy state-of-the-art facilities and equipment were worth their money? Then why have open days showcasing the school? Why do prospective parents bother going on those boring school tours and listening to boring tour guides bragging about how big the stage of the new concert hall is? (I should know - I conducted open day tours for years) If a "better" education was all their cared about then effective advertising for a private school should just consist of a list of the school's VCE results. Ever wondered why no private school does that?

Actually, come to think of it, what private school charges $30k a year?! Slight exaggeration there.

Stop being silly. I never mentioned that there needs to be "a truly level playing field". I said that public school students are generally more inclined to be self taught. You can bring up the fact that there are some who go tutoring, but the majority of them dont.

Isn't that a main argument of those who approve of UoM removing the ENTER? To provide a better playing field because ENTERs can apparently be "bought"? (even though I didn't pay a cent to go to my private school and still got a 99+ thank you very much.)

If you are born into a family which is not as financially well off, that is the deck you have been dealt in life. Stop whinging about it and make the best of what you have. And recognise that you don't need a personal tutor to do well. There are so many members on this site who are living proof of that.

Is it me; or have you completely gone off topic. Topic is: Private school students are more likely to adapt quicker at university because they are used to the whole "self learning". If anything, this last bit is proving my point. I never said you need a tutor to do well. I just said that those who are able to get into the same course [and ENTER] without a tutor; in comparison to those who were tutored throughout their schooling life are more likely to be inclined towards self learning. And the conclusion is that when they enter uni; they won't be as daunted by the aspect of self learning

Firstly, that was not directed at you but at those who use the fact that they can't afford tutors as an excuse for getting a lower ENTER. Like Eriny said, that is a cop out argument. Plus, if state schoolers were so great at self-directed learning why do they need tutors anyway? Surely they can take responsibility for their own learning!!

And you've brought up the better-at-uni argument again. Whatever happened to

You'll notice that I dismissed that argument [due to it being an extremely small part of my contention] as frivolous- so no need going there.

?

[doboman]

If you want to use personal anecdotes as evidence ... well, not a single one of the 200 or so people I went to high school with and with whom I still have some contact have yet dropped out of university. Many of them have HD and D averages. The only people I know who have dropped out of law attended public schools. Therefore, I proclaim that public schoolers have no independent learning skills. Can you see the logical fallacies in that conclusion, and therefore in your own anecdote-based generalisations?

You'll notice that I dismissed that argument [due to it being an extremely small part of my contention] as frivolous- so no need going there.

So why that massive article at the end of your post about how state schoolers do better in university?

Firstly; the article was a good read. Secondly, the article was based on research (however bias it may be). And thirldly; the article wasn't included to strengthen my point. Actually, half of the argument is going against my point. Simply found it a good read. If i wanted it to strengthen my argument, I would've taken out the last half. 

Nice to know that parents think "fancy concert halls", "chapels", "overseas trips", "overpriced uniforms" and "FREE (yeh, that's what it is) music lessons" are worth $30K.

Lol you must be naive to think those free music lessons actually were free. How do you think the school is going to pay those music teachers if not out of the massive school fees?

Parents didn't think those fancy state-of-the-art facilities and equipment were worth their money? Then why have open days showcasing the school? Why do prospective parents bother going on those boring school tours and listening to boring tour guides bragging about how big the stage of the new concert hall is? (I should know - I conducted open day tours for years) If a "better" education was all their cared about then effective advertising for a private school should just consist of a list of the school's VCE results. Ever wondered why no private school does that?

I'm not naive. I know exactly where the money is coming from. And i never doubted that parents find all those things are worth '$30 K'. I merely suggested that it's quite funny/sad that parents are willing to pay so much money.

As for why the schools showcase it. Simply because they are a narcicistic bunch- and their target audience (the 'rents) only worry about how "classy" and how "elegent" the school they are sending their kid to.

Actually, come to think of it, what private school charges $30k a year?! Slight exaggeration there.

Haha. You caught me- and i can't be stuffed looking. But i can tell you of a school that's $20K + 1.5K "enrollment fee". But yes, it was a slight exaggeration :$

Stop being silly. I never mentioned that there needs to be "a truly level playing field". I said that public school students are generally more inclined to be self taught. You can bring up the fact that there are some who go tutoring, but the majority of them dont.

Isn't that a main argument of those who approve of UoM removing the ENTER? To provide a better playing field because ENTERs can apparently be "bought"? (even though I didn't pay a cent to go to my private school and still got a 99+ thank you very much.)

Not my argument though. So I won't go there. But I will say that having a bit of extra cash lying around will improve the students chances. But there are so many other factors (such as; what the kid wants to study at uni, how much the student is willing to study, family background, how good he is able to cope with exam stress ect ect). So, although i believe it could improve the students chances- the arguement will go on- and on because there are so many variable to be taken into account.

If you are born into a family which is not as financially well off, that is the deck you have been dealt in life. Stop whinging about it and make the best of what you have. And recognise that you don't need a personal tutor to do well. There are so many members on this site who are living proof of that.

Is it me; or have you completely gone off topic. Topic is: Private school students are more likely to adapt quicker at university because they are used to the whole "self learning". If anything, this last bit is proving my point. I never said you need a tutor to do well. I just said that those who are able to get into the same course [and ENTER] without a tutor; in comparison to those who were tutored throughout their schooling life are more likely to be inclined towards self learning. And the conclusion is that when they enter uni; they won't be as daunted by the aspect of self learning

Firstly, that was not directed at you but at those who use the fact that they can't afford tutors as an excuse for getting a lower ENTER. Like Eriny said, that is a cop out argument. Plus, if state schoolers were so great at self-directed learning why do they need tutors anyway? Surely they can take responsibility for their own learning!!

EDIT: To be spoon-fed even more?...Read it wrong.

And you've brought up the better-at-uni argument again. Whatever happened to

You'll notice that I dismissed that argument [due to it being an extremely small part of my contention] as frivolous- so no need going there.

?

Answered that above. Why bring it up twice?

[Glockmeister]

Yea not complaining
just disagreeing with Mao's statement:

Spoonfeeding is when the teachers and all the resources students need on a silver platter, and the students just do the work that's handed down to them. They don't do extra research, they don't decide on what to learn/what to practice/what to read.

In uni, as opposed to being given resources, you suss them out yourself. You do your own research, you decide yourself on how deep you should understand a topic, you decide for yourself how to revise and study.

I don't really think the level of 'spoonfeeding' really chnages from yr12 -> uni, I mean in yr12 you have syllabus' and past exams, and you can ask teachers for help when you need it. In uni you also have unit syllabus telling you exactly what you need to learn, and past exams, and professors are happy to help as well, and you can do great by just doing the work that's handed down to you.

heh, I wish I had past exams to be able to revise.