Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?

[cosine]

I will put it very simply, if you think vegetarianism > eating anything, think about this. We humans are organisms, we are live beings, we are animals, just like chickens and roosters, and just like tigers and zebras. You know what else are organisms? Plants, plants are also living things, no they do not have a brain, but they are alive, they breathe, just like us animals, and they require energy, just like us animals.

So if you are against killing animals and eating their meat, then why are you not against the murdering of lettuce, tomatoes and apples?

[geminii]

We humans adapt to make our lives better. You do not see humans dying from eating meat bought from coles or safeway, so why should they stop? Is it healthier? I dont know. I work out. I go home. I eat chicken or beef. I repeat. I see gains. I see that meat is good.

Better lives? I have no idea where you got that from -
Meat gives you an increased risk of:
- Cancer
- Heart disease

Milk gives you an increased risk of:
- Acne
- Asthma
- Osteoporosis
- Cancer
- Diabetes
- Ear infections
- Arthritis
- Heart disease

All I'm saying is, you should question what people tell you. People tell you that milk is good for your bones. But is it? Is meat really necessary for protein/iron/other nutrients? If so, how am I alive?

Thanks for "obliging" me lol. The RSPCA definition of humanely killing is "an animal must be either killed instantly or rendered insensible to pain until death supervenes.". I'm not super learned on how animals are slaughtered but I believe that's the goal in most slaughterhouses (for a lack of a better word), but of course practices have room to improve.

I think the analogy you have given is markedly different and not a fair analogy at all. Your pal Yourofsky, who has been banned from entering several countries, also once said that users of animals and their products such as milk, meat, fur or testing should face the same fate that the animals suffer. He's a lunatic and I hope you have other people to read and learn from.

I know. I know he's been banned from several countries (including Canada). I've listened to his speeches.
By saying that Gary is a lunatic by believing that "users of animals and their products such as milk, meat, fur or testing should face the same fate that the animals suffer" clearly means that you acknowledge that the way these animals are treated is horrible, and you acknowledge that you do not want to be treated that way. Otherwise, why would you disagree with him? If the animals were not treated painfully then why would you disagree with him?
So what I do not understand is, if you get all that, why people still continue to pay the meat and dairy industry (as well as the companies that test on animals - we can't leave them out) when they know perfectly well that the money will go to people who murder innocent animals?

All I'm saying is, if you know the facts, why do you choose to ignore them? It's one thing to be ignorant. But to know what's going on and then not doing anything about it is lunacy. When I found out about how dairy cattle and meat cattle are treated I was horrified. And immediately I knew I didn't want to support that industry. It's not like I was like "oh well, not my problem, Imma just keep buying my milk and eggs". No - I can't ignore such a massive problem in today's world. What gives humans the right to keep animals in cages like concentration camps, kill 2.5 million animals A DAY, and then make it out to be some happy life they have where they are treated like royalty? They're lying to us! I just can't believe people don't realise it.

you ask him for sources but you dont provide any yourself lol
there isnt enough evidence of the significant health benefits for us to stop eating chicken or beef or fish or any meat.

If you need sources, I'll give you sources.
Meat.org - the website the meat industry doesn't want you to see
Reasons Why Meat Is Bas For Us
Eating Meat Kills More People Than Previously Thought
Diets High In Meat, Eggs And Dairy Could Be As Harmful To Health As Smoking
Got The Facts On Milk? (Documentary with tons of sources)
Eating Meat Is Not Natural
The Natural Human Diet
The Best Speech Ever - Gary Yourofsky

[geminii]

I will put it very simply, if you think vegetarianism > eating anything, think about this. We humans are organisms, we are live beings, we are animals, just like chickens and roosters, and just like tigers and zebras. You know what else are organisms? Plants, plants are also living things, no they do not have a brain, but they are alive, they breathe, just like us animals, and they require energy, just like us animals.

So if you are against killing animals and eating their meat, then why are you not against the murdering of lettuce, tomatoes and apples?

Plants are not sentient beings, they cannot feel pain.
And how can you compare the picking of crops to the thoughtless brutality of murder that millions of animals go through each day? Like how is that even a fair comparison? It's ridiculous.
Besides, eating plants is much more efficient and healthy for the world than eating meat - one acre of land can give you 3000 pounds of potatoes, and only 250 pounds of cattle.
By eating the plants directly we can save so much more food! Most of the grain in this world is used to fatten up animals for humans to eat. We could literally save billions of lives by not eating meat - the lives of animals, and those in poverty who have no food.

[keltingmeith]

Here's some more things that give you an increased risk of cancer:

-sunlight
-cooking food (INCLUDING vegies)
-many chemicals that appear in every day life

Milk and meat can lead to cancer, I'm sure - but so can lots of other things. In fact, all studies I've read show a correlation between cancer and these things. The only thing listed here that I'm sure has a causation is sunlight. Please show me a scientific article if you'd like to prove otherwise.

Also the thing with Gary is that there's a difference between ethical treatment of animals and ethical treatment of humans - to do as Gary suggests would lead to death of humans, which is where the line is drawn. THAT'S why there's outrage - we're not going to cover our eyes and pretend that all animals are killed painlessly, but at the end of the day, that's the end goal - to kill them painlessly. If you find a group who does otherwise, I'll boycott. But I won't treat humans in the same way - senseless killing of humans is not okay in my eyes (in fact, senseless killing of anything), and two wrongs don't make a right anyway.

[pi]

Loving those "highly credible" sources

I know. I know he's been banned from several countries (including Canada). I've listened to his speeches.
By saying that Gary is a lunatic by believing that "users of animals and their products such as milk, meat, fur or testing should face the same fate that the animals suffer" clearly means that you acknowledge that the way these animals are treated is horrible, and you acknowledge that you do not want to be treated that way. Otherwise, why would you disagree with him? If the animals were not treated painfully then why would you disagree with him?

Being cruel, as per the RSPCA defintion of inhumane killing, is bad. I'd like to believe that in Aus we strive to humanely kill animals, I know that in reality this doesn't happen but that things are always trying to be improved. I have faith in things improving.

I completely disagree with him and think he's a bit of a nut-case. I would not wanted to be treated like, for example, a rat that was bred for lab testing new drugs. Am I ashamed in admitting that? Not at all. I understand where he's coming from, but I also believe he's taking scenarios to the nth degree and still think they're relevant. They're just not.

So yes, I think animals could be treated better in these facilities, but like above I think that things are improving every time light gets shone on a dodgy practice. I don't see why if a scientist is injecting a rat with a new drug they should, by his logic, inject it into themselves too? Absolute lunacy.

So what I do not understand is, if you get all that, why people still continue to pay the meat and dairy industry (as well as the companies that test on animals - we can't leave them out) when they know perfectly well that the money will go to people who murder innocent animals?

Why would I still buy meat? It tastes good.
Why would I still by medicine that was once tested on animals? I kinda don't want to die yet.

If you want to live your life by your definition of what's ethical by not eating meat and not taking medicine, feel free to go and do that. I would applaud you for having the determination, but also feel sorry for you for the irrationality in your choice.

All I'm saying is, if you know the facts, why do you choose to ignore them? It's one thing to be ignorant. But to know what's going on and then not doing anything about it is lunacy.

There are a *lot* of bad things going on in the world. I read about them, I think about them, and I understand they're bad. But I can't do things about them; I don't have the money, don't have the resources, or maybe I've prioritised to do other things first because I'm just selfish like that. I think it's very rich of you to be accusing me (or anyone) of not doing anything about something that you think is "bad", and then labeling our inactions as a matter of "lunacy".

When I found out about how dairy cattle and meat cattle are treated I was horrified. And immediately I knew I didn't want to support that industry. It's not like I was like "oh well, not my problem, Imma just keep buying my milk and eggs". No - I can't ignore such a massive problem in today's world. What gives humans the right to keep animals in cages like concentration camps, kill 2.5 million animals A DAY, and then make it out to be some happy life they have where they are treated like royalty? They're lying to us! I just can't believe people don't realise it.

Your pal Yourofsky equated them to the Holocaust and I'm disgusted you're using his language again with "concentration camps". I won't be commenting again because I think that sort of talk is just sickening and disrespectful.

And for the record, you found out that there were animals in "concentration camps" and all you did was stopped buying milk and eggs? Shaaaaaaaaame on you, do you think they noticed that $5/week loss of profit? Did you really make a difference? Imagine if the US found out about Hitler's concentration camps and stopped buying German cars. Give yourself a pat on the back mate, but you haven't made anyone feel good except yourself. (do you realise how unfair and stupid that sounds now?)

And how can you compare the picking of crops to the thoughtless brutality of murder that millions of animals go through each day? Like how is that even a fair comparison? It's ridiculous.

But the Holocaust is a fair and valid comparison? What an absolute joke mate.

[Seņor]

Better lives? I have no idea where you got that from -
Meat gives you an increased risk of:
- Cancer
- Heart disease

Milk gives you an increased risk of:
- Acne
- Asthma
- Osteoporosis
- Cancer
- Diabetes
- Ear infections
- Arthritis
- Heart disease

The Best Speech Ever - Gary Yourofsky[/url]

I been drinking milk since i my mum stop breastfeeding me. I am a healthy man. I still drink milk to this day.
I do not have a single problem. Its one thing to call someone ignorant when they ignore healthwarning signs, however i have not seen any signs lmao, in fact im extremely healthy.

'The Best Speech Ever' That seems like credible and unbiased source.

[geminii]

Your pal Yourofsky equated them to the Holocaust and I'm disgusted you're using his language again with "concentration camps". I won't be commenting again because I think that sort of talk is just sickening and disrespectful.

And for the record, you found out that there were animals in "concentration camps" and all you did was stopped buying milk and eggs? Shaaaaaaaaame on you, do you think they noticed that $5/week loss of profit? Did you really make a difference? Imagine if the US found out about Hitler's concentration camps and stopped buying German cars. Give yourself a pat on the back mate, but you haven't made anyone feel good except yourself. (do you realise how unfair and stupid that sounds now?)

But the Holocaust is a fair and valid comparison? What an absolute joke mate.

Wow, okay, I wasn't comparing it to the Holocaust. I was just simply saying that the mass numbers of animals being cramped up in cages is a really bad thing, it shouldn't be done, etc.

Why would I still buy meat? It tastes good.
Why would I still by medicine that was once tested on animals? I kinda don't want to die yet.

If you want to live your life by your definition of what's ethical by not eating meat and not taking medicine, feel free to go and do that. I would applaud you for having the determination, but also feel sorry for you for the irrationality in your choice.

Wow. Okay. You're justifying the murder of millions upon millions of animals...by saying it tastes good.
And how is my opinion irrational? How can you call my opinion irrational when you literally just said you eat animals simply because they taste good?
That's like a smoker saying, I smoke because I feel good, as a way to justify it. Like yeah, we get that it feels good, but don't you realise it's bad for you?!
Or a murderer saying, I murder because I feel good. Hey, that's actually a pretty good comparison to the people in the meat industry. Don't you think?

The point is if this was happening to humans, at this scale, people would be in outrage. It would have stopped by now. But why is it different when it comes to animals? How are we better than them? And why do we think we have the right to control their (short) lives?

[geminii]

I been drinking milk since i my mum stop breastfeeding me. I am a healthy man. I still drink milk to this day.
I do not have a single problem. Its one thing to call someone ignorant when they ignore healthwarning signs, however i have not seen any signs lmao, in fact im extremely healthy.

Milk causes *increased* risk of the problems I mentioned. it does not guarantee them, but it certainly increases the risk of developing them. Kudos on staying healthy!

'The Best Speech Ever' That seems like credible and unbiased source.

Technically it is not a source, I just listed it because I thought people should watch it. If you really want to find the truth then it's very easy - just search it up on Google and everything comes up.

[Swagadaktal]

Ok I haven't read every single post so I'm sorry if I'm repeating someone else... but from what I've seen - the debate has gone from reasoned /evidence supported to just conspiracy theories and correlations. Not causation.

Meat could be associated with all those terrible things you named simply because of how it's cooked by some people. Correlation. Not causation.

And brah don't even try to mess with milk. The argument isn't strong. A lot of meddies in here (i love yall) - I don't think one person would support those 'facts.'

Without trying to be blunt, you're gasping at straws now. Sort've like (not comparing you to these people but the technique used is mirrored here) racist people who have resorted their entire knowledge on a race or religion (not racist here but bigoted) on a facebook post. It's sort've like you're trying to reassure yourself and not others, trying to prove to yourself that you've made the right decision, not trying to change our minds.

Ya feel?

Oh and damn man not everyone can be empathetic towards animals fam. Like tbh I don't have the empathetic capacity to feel for animals I can't see you know? I know it's terrible in some places, but I'm just not that empathetic. With issues effecting fellow humans, who share the same cognitive and perceptual abilities as us, I.e the issues facing our Indigenous, or gender inequality in society, or minority groups who are excluded from society - I can relate to them without seeing them.

You can't have this predisposition that everyone shares the same views about animals as you.

And meat just doesn't "taste good" - it's been woven into the fabric of our society. Essentially, it's not as easy as you think to just completely uproot our cuisine and way of living. I could have 10 other reasons here and I wouldn't even be skimming the surface of the reasons why meat is consumed.

[keltingmeith]

Alright, I'm going from debater to adjudicator.

This debate is becoming highly emotionally charged. From this point, name calling and putting people down will not be tolerated. Zero tolerance. If you feel like such emotive language is the way to best get your point across, you're wrong. If you feel personally charged by this topic, feel free to step out for a few minutes, then calm yourself before responding.

Also, please no more discussion on the Holocaust. I know quite a few Jewish people who would find it rather offensive. Whether you mean it that way or not.

[pi]

I know I said I wouldn't comment again, but I lied. This takes me back to the AN of old, good times

But as soon as it becomes animals, everyone wants to close their eyes and pretend it doesn't happen, make excuses, ignore it, whatever.

I'm sorry? But when did I say unhumane killing of animals didn't occur? I said it sadly did occur and that I believe as a society we're improving.

I don't know if you understand this but WAY more animals were killed, and continue to be killed, to this day, than humans in the Holocaust. Of course the Holocaust was bad. And this killing of animals is bad too. But more lives are being lost in the meat/dairy holocaust.

Oh I didn't know that, I must have forgotten that I'm a complete idiot with an IQ in single digits. Thanks for being so condescending.

I'm not going to apologise for humans killing animals, animals kill animals, it's the circle of life, it's been happening before humans even existed (although given you dodged all my comments about evolution, perhaps that's not your cup of tea?). Unlike lions who bite a gazelles' heads off, we painlessly kill animals. Of the two, which is "murder" to you?

So why is it that when humans are killed everyone thinks its the worst thing ever, and then when way more animals die, in a shorter time period, people don't care? Someone at least explain that. Is it because you think you're above animals? That you're somehow better than them? How are we better than them? We're the ones killing them. They haven't done a single thing to us.

Two reasons why we react differently:
1) We're humans and we look after our own, ie. humans come first and every species is the same, evolution is a selfish process
2) I can't believe I have to say this, but the Holocaust does not actually fall under the RSPCA definition of humane killing of animals, and that's because humans aren't part of that definition, and what happened over there was fkn horrific (and even that is an under-exaggeration).

Whether humans are better or "more evolved" is as much a philosophical point as it is a scientific one, so I'm not going to go into it. But I don't think it matters, we're killing them to eat them. Like a lion would kill a gazelle to eat it. It doesn't need to kill the gazelle (there are other food options), we don't need to kill the cow. Both groups want to. It's not hard to understand.

Wow. Okay. You're justifying the murder of millions upon millions of animals...by saying it tastes good. Applause for you.

Was hoping for a cool participation certificate, but applause will do.

And how is my opinion irrational? How can you call my opinion irrational when you literally just said you eat animals simply because they taste good?

> I have the urge to eat steak because I like the taste
> I'll buy some steak meat
> I'll cook some steak
> I'll eat some steak
> I'm now full and don't have that urge to eat steak
> I'm happy

Seems completely logical to me. What part defies logic?

That's like a smoker saying, I smoke because I feel good.

So what? Good for them. As long as I don't have to inhale their smoke (because I think smoking is unhealthy for me), that's their choice and their freedom. Do you have an issue with that too?

Or a murderer saying, I murder because I feel good. Hey, that's actually a pretty good comparison to the people in the meat industry. Don't you think?

I actually don't think that at all, and I'm worried you think that. As mentioned, as a species, we protect our own. Someone killing our own is not something that comes under "protection", so thus (among a myriad of other reasons), I'm against murdering people. I've address why this is different to killing animals above.

I also want to add, once again, that in no way am I degrading the horrors of the Holocaust by comparing it to the slaughter of animals for food.

But... you just did it again?

Only difference? The species.

One difference can make all the difference

This debate is becoming highly emotionally charged. From this point, name calling and putting people down will not be tolerated. Zero tolerance. If you feel like such emotive language is the way to best get your point across, you're wrong. If you feel personally charged by this topic, feel free to step out for a few minutes, then calm yourself before responding.

Oh no! Here come the PoPo!

[geminii]

OKAY GUYS.

Let me just write this.

I get that we all have different views.
I get that not all of us eat meat, dairy, etc.
I get that people can choose what they want to do.
Please can we not have any rude comments? We're all human, we all have feelings.
I understand what I have said has upset people. But that doesn't mean I'm not upset too.
It would be great if we could just agree to disagree. I hope that's okay.
I think I'm going to finish by saying thanks for posting your opinions.
My comparisons were not meant to hurt anyone. I did not intend to hurt anyone.
Please forgive me if I caused anyone any hurt.

pi, I'd just like to say, I didn't write those things as a personal attack. I'm sorry if I made myself out to be someone hating on you, I don't hate you and I don't know you personally so I can't hate you. You are 100% allowed to do whatever you want with your life. We just have different opinions. That's okay. I would just like to say I'm sorry for making you feel upset, and I'm sorry I got really attack-ish too. Forgive and forget?

Once again, really sorry. All I was trying to do was express my views. I know you guys were just trying to do the same. Things got a little heated and for that I apologise.

Thanks.

[Swagadaktal]

OKAY GUYS.

Let me just write this.

I get that we all have different views.
I get that not all of us eat meat, dairy, etc.
I get that people can choose what they want to do.
Please can we not have any rude comments? We're all human, we all have feelings.
I understand what I have said has upset people. But that doesn't mean I'm not upset too.
It would be great if we could just agree to disagree. I hope that's okay.
I think I'm going to finish by saying thanks for posting your opinions.
My comparisons were not meant to hurt anyone. I did not intend to hurt anyone.
Please forgive me if I caused anyone any hurt.

pi, I'd just like to say, I didn't write those things as a personal attack. I'm sorry if I made myself out to be someone hating on you, I don't hate you and I don't know you personally so I can't hate you. You are 100% allowed to do whatever you want with your life. We just have different opinions. That's okay. I would just like to say I'm sorry for making you feel upset, and I'm sorry I got really attack-ish too. Forgive and forget?

Once again, really sorry. All I was trying to do was express my views. I know you guys were just trying to do the same. Things got a little heated and for that I apologise.

Thanks.

Oh dude it's perfectly fine to post your opinions. I hope I didnt discourage you in my post, I was just simply joining the debate - my post wasn't emotionally fueled, more analytically viewing the arguments presented and the wording used.

If this wasnt in relation to my post and my ego is just that huge ignore this

[cosine]

OKAY GUYS.

Let me just write this.

I get that we all have different views.
I get that not all of us eat meat, dairy, etc.
I get that people can choose what they want to do.
Please can we not have any rude comments? We're all human, we all have feelings.
I understand what I have said has upset people. But that doesn't mean I'm not upset too.
It would be great if we could just agree to disagree. I hope that's okay.
I think I'm going to finish by saying thanks for posting your opinions.
My comparisons were not meant to hurt anyone. I did not intend to hurt anyone.
Please forgive me if I caused anyone any hurt.

pi, I'd just like to say, I didn't write those things as a personal attack. I'm sorry if I made myself out to be someone hating on you, I don't hate you and I don't know you personally so I can't hate you. You are 100% allowed to do whatever you want with your life. We just have different opinions. That's okay. I would just like to say I'm sorry for making you feel upset, and I'm sorry I got really attack-ish too. Forgive and forget?

Once again, really sorry. All I was trying to do was express my views. I know you guys were just trying to do the same. Things got a little heated and for that I apologise.

Thanks.

You don't have to be sorry for expressing your opinion, Donald Trump certainly isn't xD

Besides you are right in saying that we animas think greater than plants, and hence we can eat plants. But you can't deny that humans are intellectually more capable than other animals, so that's why I think killing/eating (responsibly and without in humane treatment) animals is acceptable. That is my opinion.

Oh and I pick up a scent that Pi really LOVES his meat haha

[keltingmeith]

Oh no! Here come the PoPo!

wotcher m8 ill gut ya