Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?

[pi]

pi, I'd just like to say, I didn't write those things as a personal attack. I'm sorry if I made myself out to be someone hating on you, I don't hate you and I don't know you personally so I can't hate you. You are 100% allowed to do whatever you want with your life. We just have different opinions. That's okay. I would just like to say I'm sorry for making you feel upset, and I'm sorry I got really attack-ish too. Forgive and forget?

That's fine, I have a pretty high threshold for insults, and I was probably a bit of a dick at times too Agreeing to disagree this time

Oh and I pick up a scent that Pi really LOVES his meat haha

I actually don't eat that much meat due to my up-bringing I just love a good debate

[slothpomba]

I don't have time to read the other arguments (maybe another time) but i have been a vegetarian for 16 years (since i was 8, long story, my own choice).

I think it's pretty fucked personally, that said, its not like i'll judge other people for it. Even moreso, i want people to be vegetarians because they believe in a set of ethical views, rather than them just being badgered into it by me.  It reminds me this story of this couple being two different religions. To make the girl happy, the guy would convert but if you think about it, that's almost an insulting thing to do. You want a person to believe in something because they actually do think its the right thing.

Here are some basic facts. We don't need meat to survive, it is essentially a nice thing to have. Production of meat, especially modern agriculture, can and very often does, cause a great degree of pain, discomfort and stress to the animals. Thus, we are basically causing a large degree of pain and suffering to other sentient creatures over a luxury we want, rather than something we even need, i do find that a little fucked.

I think philosophically and ethically (but even just on a common level) people will have a hard time truly justifying causing suffering to another being because it gives them something they like, rather than something they need. Say if i went around stabbing peoples cats or dogs because i liked it, rather than necessarily out of self defense (or starvation), most people would be rather disgusted. The industrialised nature of modern agriculture, like many other cruel things in our world, puts us at an arms length so comfortable that we often forget where it really comes from and how.

However, its like many things in life. Most people either don't think about it all that often or all that deeply OR they just dont really care. I do a lot of bad things i don't think about all that often but in a perfectly moral world i should care about and take action on. I'm pretty sure most of my clothes were made in a Bangladeshi sweat-shop. These electronics probably contain a lot of misery too. That said, i suppose its a bit easier to minimise meat consumption than it is electronics or clothes.

[Swagadaktal]

You don't have to be sorry for expressing your opinion, Donald Trump certainly isn't xD

I get that you're saying it's ok to express your opinions but can we not compare AceVce77 to donald trump pls (i know you didnt intend to but you ended up doing that lol )

[geminii]

Oh dude it's perfectly fine to post your opinions. I hope I didnt discourage you in my post, I was just simply joining the debate - my post wasn't emotionally fueled, more analytically viewing the arguments presented and the wording used.

If this wasnt in relation to my post and my ego is just that huge ignore this

You don't have to be sorry for expressing your opinion, Donald Trump certainly isn't xD

Besides you are right in saying that we animas think greater than plants, and hence we can eat plants. But you can't deny that humans are intellectually more capable than other animals, so that's why I think killing/eating (responsibly and without in humane treatment) animals is acceptable. That is my opinion.

Oh and I pick up a scent that Pi really LOVES his meat haha

Thanks for the posts guys! It really makes me feel a lot better.
Also Swagadaktal, that post was referring to everyone Your post was definitely very helpful and allowed me to understand what people were thinking.
cosine, thanks for your post also. It helps me understand your opinion easily.

Perhaps we should continue the discussion in a healthy way (I'm directing this at everyone). Let's not let this get too emotionally charged!

Cosine: Your point about intelligence is one that I've heard a lot. Chickens are known to show high-level reasoning skills - higher than that of an infant child or even a dog. They can even be 'smarter' than some disabled people. Would you rather eat a dog than a chicken? And if not, why not?

That's fine, I have a pretty high threshold for insults, and I was probably a bit of a dick at times too Agreeing to disagree this time

I actually don't eat that much meat due to my up-bringing I just love a good debate

Thanks pi!

I don't have time to read the other arguments (maybe another time) but i have been a vegetarian for 16 years (since i was 8, long story, my own choice).

I think it's pretty fucked personally, that said, its not like i'll judge other people for it. Even moreso, i want people to be vegetarians because they believe in a set of ethical views, rather than them just being badgered into it by me.  It reminds me this story of this couple being two different religions. To make the girl happy, the guy would convert but if you think about it, that's almost an insulting thing to do. You want a person to believe in something because they actually do think its the right thing.

Here are some basic facts. We don't need meat to survive, it is essentially a nice thing to have. Production of meat, especially modern agriculture, can and very often does, cause a great degree of pain, discomfort and stress to the animals. Thus, we are basically causing a large degree of pain and suffering to other sentient creatures over a luxury we want, rather than something we even need, i do find that a little fucked.

I think philosophically and ethically (but even just on a common level) people will have a hard time truly justifying causing suffering to another being because it gives them something they like, rather than something they need. Say if i went around stabbing peoples cats or dogs because i liked it, rather than necessarily out of self defense (or starvation), most people would be rather disgusted. The industrialised nature of modern agriculture, like many other cruel things in our world, puts us at an arms length so comfortable that we often forget where it really comes from and how.

However, its like many things in life. Most people either don't think about it all that often or all that deeply OR they just dont really care. I do a lot of bad things i don't think about all that often but in a perfectly moral world i should care about and take action on. I'm pretty sure most of my clothes were made in a Bangladeshi sweat-shop. These electronics probably contain a lot of misery too. That said, i suppose its a bit easier to minimise meat consumption than it is electronics or clothes.

I 100% agree with you slothpomba, what you're saying is basically what I'm thinking.
I don't want people to become vegans/vegetarians because they're forced to - I want people to become vegans and vegetarians because they understand what will happen if they do, and genuinely WANT to make the change. It has to come from within.

All your points about how meat is non-essential, that it causes a lot of pain, and basically everything you wrote is 100% what I believe. You express my views perfectly - and in a less radical sense.

I get that you're saying it's ok to express your opinions but can we not compare AceVce77 to donald trump pls (i know you didnt intend to but you ended up doing that lol )

Thanks Swagadaktal! No offence taken by cosine, I don't think he meant it.

[Swagadaktal]

Ok in terms of chicken shown to be intelligent, (using my psych 3/4 knowledge. I've just started learning about the brain, like legit just one period on it) - the brains of animals differ significantly from humans. They have different perceptions, different understanding of what's going on - like they're structurally different so it would be inaccurate to assume that they feel the same way that we do, unless you're talking about chimps because they're very similar.

This is what makes experiments on mice more ethical, they just don't have the same cognitive ability to quite digest what's going on

[slothpomba]

Ok in terms of chicken shown to be intelligent, (using my psych 3/4 knowledge. I've just started learning about the brain, like legit just one period on it) - the brains of animals differ significantly from humans. They have different perceptions, different understanding of what's going on - like they're structurally different so it would be inaccurate to assume that they feel the same way that we do, unless you're talking about chimps because they're very similar.

This is what makes experiments on mice more ethical, they just don't have the same cognitive ability to quite digest what's going on

Being intelligent is very different from being able to suffer or experience pain.

I have fairly good knowledge of neuroscience and we work with mice in my lab. We are very careful to not cause them pain or suffering, animals like mice (and by extension, cows, chickens and so on) can most definitely feel pain and experience suffering. They definitely have the neural responses (but even then it is obvious just with your eyes) relating to pain.

You can debate whether X or Y animal is intelligent to the cows come home but it is extremely uncontroversial that animals, pretty much every animal, can feel pain and that there is a species distinct level of "suffering" associated with it.

[cosine]

Thanks for the posts guys! It really makes me feel a lot better.
Also Swagadaktal, that post was referring to everyone Your post was definitely very helpful and allowed me to understand what people were thinking.
cosine, thanks for your post also. It helps me understand your opinion easily.

Perhaps we should continue the discussion in a healthy way (I'm directing this at everyone). Let's not let this get too emotionally charged!

Cosine: Your point about intelligence is one that I've heard a lot. Chickens are known to show high-level reasoning skills - higher than that of an infant child or even a dog. They can even be 'smarter' than some disabled people. Would you rather eat a dog than a chicken? And if not, why not?

Thanks pi!

I 100% agree with you slothpomba, what you're saying is basically what I'm thinking.
I don't want people to become vegans/vegetarians because they're forced to - I want people to become vegans and vegetarians because they understand what will happen if they do, and genuinely WANT to make the change. It has to come from within.

All your points about how meat is non-essential, that it causes a lot of pain, and basically everything you wrote is 100% what I believe. You express my views perfectly - and in a less radical sense.

Thanks Swagadaktal! No offence taken by cosine, I don't think he meant it.

You're telling me an infant child is less smarter than a chicken. Yes, a baby that has just been born for less than 8 hours is not expected to out smart a chicken, which has been periodically living it's life, with its only goal to eat. How about put it this way, if we're comparing infants, then don't compare infant humans to adult chickens, compare new born chicks and new born humans, who is smarter? Neither, because smartness is partially genetic, but majorly a social evolution, hence the reason that humans tend to be smarter than other animals is through social evolution, adults pass down heir skills to their offspring and so on. Chickens do this to their chicks too, but at the end of the day a fully grown human is more intellectual than a fully grown chicken. You just compare the two.

Besides, the main reason that humans diverged from other animals and became smarter, and more biologically fit to survive, is because the late primates undertook a more nutritious diet, consisting of mainly meat products.

I'm not sure if anyone else covered this, but is it okay for you that other animals kill other animals in order to obtain their energy needs? In other words, what do you think of heterotrophic organisms? You have the power to stop humans from killing animals, but I don't think you have the power to stop lions from killing zebras, why?

[Redoxify]

People are given the choice to make their own decisions wether right or wrong
you wanna not eat meat, good for you
you wanna eat meat, good for you
you wanna help animals, good for you
you don't wanna help animals, good for you.

We are given a conscience for a reason, we choose to use it or not.

my 2 cents

[cosine]

If animals such as cows were intellectual, why don't they stand up for their own rights and protest against the slaughtering?

Why is it that humans have the ability to protest against eating meat, but animals like cows can't?

[slothpomba]

Besides, the main reason that humans diverged from other animals and became smarter, and more biologically fit to survive, is because the late primates undertook a more nutritious diet, consisting of mainly meat products.

I actually see this repeated very often (especially so by Sam Neil, the Jurassic Park guy, in meat ads all those years ago). That said, i often wonder if its actually true or just one of those "received wisdom" things. Wouldn't happen to have any evidence on hand would you?

Either way, i think it is a fairly useless fact now. We're reached a point where we have become more developed and we certainly don't need meat in 2016. Whether we may have needed meat in 20,000 BC is of course, fairly irrelevant when one is debating, living and operating in 2016 AD.

I'm not sure if anyone else covered this, but is it okay for you that other animals kill other animals in order to obtain their energy needs? In other words, what do you think of heterotrophic organisms? You have the power to stop humans from killing animals, but I don't think you have the power to stop lions from killing zebras, why?

Humans have morality and ethical agency. We have the ability to tell right from wrong and make a choice on the matter. Likewise, it may very well be that some animals do indeed require meat to survive (don't feed your cat a vegan diet for instance) but, it is quite clear and established that humans do not need to eat a diet containing meat (indeed, for almost all of human history, meat was a luxury, especially for the people who were poor in society).

[cosine]

I actually see this repeated very often (especially so by Sam Neil, the Jurassic Park guy, in meat ads all those years ago). That said, i often wonder if its actually true or just one of those "received wisdom" things. Wouldn't happen to have any evidence on hand would you?

Either way, i think it is a fairly useless fact now. We're reached a point where we have become more developed and we certainly don't need meat in 2016. Whether we may have needed meat in 20,000 BC is of course, fairly irrelevant when one is debating, living and operating in 2016 AD.

Humans have morality and ethical agency. We have the ability to tell right from wrong and make a choice on the matter. Likewise, it may very well be that some animals do indeed require meat to survive (don't feed your cat a vegan diet for instance) but, it is quite clear and established that humans do not need to eat a diet containing meat (indeed, for almost all of human history, meat was a luxury, especially for the people who were poor in society).

No offence buddy, but because consuming meat is not 'needed' to survive is quite a weak argument. Humans don't need to do many things in order to survive, such as bathing, so what, are we in a world where people will protest against having showers because too much water is being wasted, because you don't need to clean yourself to survive, right?

It just saddens me that people care more about saving animals and their rights more than our own species. How about we solve our own issues first, end the wars and sufferings, of our fellow humans, and maybe then I can even think about the rights of animals.

[slothpomba]

No offence buddy, but because consuming meat is not 'needed' to survive is quite a weak argument. Humans don't need to do many things in order to survive, such as bathing, so what, are we in a world where people will protest against having showers because too much water is being wasted, because you don't need to clean yourself to survive, right?

Showering does not directly cause suffering. The process of animal agriculture, mostly often does. If you're willing to contend its OK to cause pain and suffering to an animal for something you want, rather than something you need, then you will have to argue for it.

It's abundantly obvious having a shower is quite different in a philosophical ethical sense than raising animals and slaughtering them for a luxury item. The underlying ethical choices and implications aren't even remotely similar.

It just saddens me that people care more about saving animals and their rights more than our own species. How about we solve our own issues first, end the wars and sufferings, of our fellow humans, and maybe then I can even think about the rights of animals.

I think this is weak argument on close analysis. It has nothing to do with the morality surrounding the eating of meat. Likewise, it is extremely silly to assume this is a zero sum scenario. If you truly believe that we can only fix one issue at once, i would like to see you argue in favour of this. Rather, i contend that you can both be kind to or care about animal suffering and also care about and aim towards alleviating human suffering. If you wish to argue the opposite, you may go ahead.

[cosine]

Showering does not directly cause suffering. The process of animal agriculture, mostly often does. If you're willing to contend its OK to cause pain and suffering to an animal for something you want, rather than something you need, then you will have to argue for it.

It's abundantly obvious having a shower is quite different in a philosophical ethical sense than raising animals and slaughtering them for a luxury item. The underlying ethical choices and implications aren't even remotely similar.

I think this is weak argument on close analysis. It has nothing to do with the morality surrounding the eating of meat. Likewise, it is extremely silly to assume this is a zero sum scenario. If you truly believe that we can only fix one issue at once, i would like to see you argue in favour of this. Rather, i contend that you can both be kind to or care about animal suffering and also care about and aim towards alleviating human suffering. If you wish to argue the opposite, you may go ahead.

I think it's a brilliant argument. It's not directed to eating meat, it sounds biased as you word it. It's aimed at helping animals and showing a large alert for them rather than our own species. Sure we can do both at the same time, but why? If we all put in 100% effort into helping our own homeless and suffering, the problem would eradicate much quicker. Obviously we care about ourselves more, so save our problem first then care about other animals problems.

But ask yourself this, why don't the cows save their own problem? Why don't you see cows protesting against animal cruelty and equality? Why don't chickens stand up for themselves, like we do for them? Why don't chickens stand up for the homeless and suffering humans, do they not care about us, just like we care about them?

[geminii]

I'm not sure if anyone else covered this, but is it okay for you that other animals kill other animals in order to obtain their energy needs? In other words, what do you think of heterotrophic organisms? You have the power to stop humans from killing animals, but I don't think you have the power to stop lions from killing zebras, why?

Yes. That is 100% okay with me. Because, lions ONLY eat zebras, impalas, etc. whereas humans can definitely survive on a diet of plant-based products. There is no need for them to eat meat. And if eating meat causes more pain and suffering in the world, then why do it?

But ask yourself this, why don't the cows save their own problem? Why don't you see cows protesting against animal cruelty and equality? Why don't chickens stand up for themselves, like we do for them? Why don't chickens stand up for the homeless and suffering humans, do they not care about us, just like we care about them?

If animals such as cows were intellectual, why don't they stand up for their own rights and protest against the slaughtering?

Why is it that humans have the ability to protest against eating meat, but animals like cows can't?

Well, I mean, they can't exactly speak English, can they? (or any other human language for that matter).
But they do try to tell you to stop. When they are being loaded into the trucks, they are crying out to be let out of the hellhole. When a mother cow gives birth to a calf and it is taken away from her, she follows the truck as far as she can. They both cry for weeks, even months after being separated to be reunited again. It is absolutely heartbreaking. When you hear an animal cry out for its baby, you know you are experiencing a true act of suffering. Whether it is a human mother, a cow mother or a pig mother, we all suffer the same when our babies are taken from us. You think they don't care? You think they want to die? You think they're not crying out for their lives? If so, you're not listening hard enough.

It just saddens me that people care more about saving animals and their rights more than our own species. How about we solve our own issues first, end the wars and sufferings, of our fellow humans, and maybe then I can even think about the rights of animals.

I agree with slothpomba. Also, how can we expect to treat fellow humans well when we can't be expected to treat fellow animals well? Mahatma Gandhi said "The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated." And this is certainly true. All we need is compassion for all beings. Seriously, is a little compassion for the beings we are brutally murdering a little too much to ask?
Also, about you saying we should end wars and suffering first - at least wars have an objective. People are fighting for something. What are we killing animals for? A temporary moment of taste bud pleasure? I'm not saying that wars aren't bad. But killing animals for a reason like that is just crazy.

[cosine]

Yes. That is 100% okay with me. Because, lions ONLY eat zebras, impalas, etc. whereas humans can definitely survive on a diet of plant-based products. There is no need for them to eat meat. And if eating meat causes more pain and suffering in the world, then why do it?

Well, I mean, they can't exactly speak English, can they? (or any other human language for that matter).
But they do try to tell you to stop. When they are being loaded into the trucks, they are crying out to be let out of the hellhole. When a mother cow gives birth to a calf and it is taken away from her, she follows the truck as far as she can. They both cry for weeks, even months after being separated to be reunited again. It is absolutely heartbreaking. When you hear an animal cry out for its baby, you know you are experiencing a true act of suffering. Whether it is a human mother, a cow mother or a pig mother, we all suffer the same when our babies are taken from us. You think they don't care? You think they want to die? You think they're not crying out for their lives? If so, you're not listening hard enough.

I agree with slothpomba. Also, how can we expect to treat fellow humans well when we can't be expected to treat fellow animals well? Mahatma Gandhi said "The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated." And this is certainly true. All we need is compassion for all beings. Seriously, is a little compassion for the beings we are brutally murdering a little too much to ask?
Also, about you saying we should end wars and suffering first - at least wars have an objective. People are fighting for something. What are we killing animals for? A temporary moment of taste bud pleasure? I'm not saying that wars aren't bad. But killing animals for a reason like that is just crazy.

Okay so you're saying that wars are totally fine because they have a reasoning, and the MILLIONS of Syrian refugees suffering and starving to death is all good, because at least there was a reason, right? Haha, you will only know what war feels like when you experience it, you hear that pin drop? In Iraq, that could've been the pin of a greenade, quick, run.

Honestly can not believe that you think war and killing humans is fine because there's a reason behind it. I don't even want to continue this argument anymore. Go live as a refugee and then tell me what the objevtive behind your misery is.