Abortion - Are You Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

[heids]

I do stand by my comment that it is one of the worst possible crimes you could commit. Unlike crimes such as murdering an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend - where one person may be guilty of cheating, blackmailing, etc., the murder of a foetus is the murder of the most innocent life on the planet. It literally has not even got a chance to live its life.
I'm not saying other murders aren't bad - what I'm saying is, the murder of a foetus is so much crueller. You're not killing someone who may have already been on earth for 5, 10, 20, 40 years, and has had a chance to experience life. You're killing someone who hasn't even been able to see the sun yet, or breathe fresh air, simply because, I don't know, 'it was a mistake' or 'I can't afford it'.
While that six year old girl who was killed and buried, that little boy that froze to death, and the victims of the terrrorist attacks in Manchester all had a chance to experience life, those killed by abortion never did. It's taking away the most basic right of a human being - the right to life.

So here is where you and I fundamentally disagree.

How is it cruel to take life from something that has no consciousness to realise what life is? I'd personally say it's far crueler for both the person, and their friends/family, to kill them at the age of 20.  If you have, say, 100 people who love your personality, it hurts them far more if you die at that point than if you died before you were born. And if you hadn't been born, they wouldn't have been "less happy" because you weren't there; they would have filled the gap with other friends.  Plus, the person themselves can feel the pain of knowing everything is about to end, whereas without consciousness in the first place, they don't realise they're missing a thing.

And in using birth control/contraception at all, you're doing just the same thing, just a tiny step earlier (so it's theoretically even worse hahaha): stopping countless new people from being born, thus robbing them of life.

I prefer the approach of improving the quality of life of those currently alive, rather than focusing on creating more people. Living in misery is worse than never getting the chance to live.

[The Raven]

To be honest, as much respect as I have for your right to have your opinion and express it as you choose, the fact that you are saying that abortion is 'crueller' than the pre-meditated murder of a partner is something I really can't be compatible to even begin to discuss. I'm not sure whether you are insinuating abortion is crueller than those things I listed because the 'victims haven't experienced life yet.' If you are - Well, I think you are very brave to say that. The idea that a woman who was raped and impregnated, who chooses to have an abortion, is on the same criminal level as a terrorist bomber - That's, yeah.

I also think there is some cognitive dissonance happening here.

To believe that abortion is as reprehensible as acts such as terrorism, murder, and torture and then walk around in a society where you probably encounter women everyday who have had abortions requires either some form of cognitive dissonance or a genuine belief that many of the people you meet are despicable people on par with terrorists and sociopathic serial killers.

[elysepopplewell]

And in using birth control/contraception at all, you're doing just the same thing, just a tiny step earlier (so it's theoretically even worse hahaha): stopping countless new people from being born, thus robbing them of life.

Interested in this? Can you flesh it out a bit more?

I prefer the approach of improving the quality of life of those currently alive, rather than focusing on creating more people. Living in misery is worse than never getting the chance to live.

Nice perspective!

[geminii]

Thanks patricia for all your questions! 

so, if you were bringing the child into severe poverty or a possibly abusive household or knew it would have birth defects which would cause it (them?) to live in constant pain, etc etc, would you consider that preferable to abortion? do you think there could be situations when bringing a child to life would be a worse outcome for them, or is it just kind of always better to have the child and weather the consequences as best you can? (: this isn't meant to be attacking or anything, i'm just v intrigued haha.

So if you saw a man/woman walking down the street, and I was going to stab them, would you try to stop me? I mean, I would assume so, because murder is wrong, right?
What if they're in really difficult circumstances or living in poverty? As soon as they walk out of your eyesight you'll likely forget about them. You're not going to offer to pay their bills, their taxes. You just don't want to see them get murdered!
(Also I'm sorry if I sound attack-y here, when I say 'you' I mean people in general, I don't mean you specifically

have you seen how people like that picket? it tends to involve a lot of 'you're going to hell' signs and verbal abuse, which understandably is fairly unpalatable if you're already shaken up by having made the difficult decision to have an abortion. i've only heard of two instances where it got physically violent, though, (america wyd) which isn't enough to generalise. it's bullying to express your opinions in a way that intimidates or inhibits others and a lot of protestors do just that. i don't see anything wrong with expressing your opinions, but there are better ways to do it. like, god, if you have to picket, do it outside a government building because then at least someone who can be influenced by your decision might have a chance at seeing you.

Ok so the signs aren't a problem, if you don't like what they say, don't look. You can't get beaten up by a sign.
With the verbal abuse, remember when you were in primary school and your mum would tell you, 'if someone says something mean to you or bullies you, just walk away'. It's funny how we seem to have forgotten that as we've grown older. If a woman decides to get an abortion, these people have every right to express their views and aim to change the woman's mind. Shouting 'baby murderer' - which, technically, would be correct - isn't going to kill you. I agree that it's not a nice thing to say, but if a woman has decided to end the life of her child then she should expect to face some criticism.

To be honest, as much respect as I have for your right to have your opinion and express it as you choose, the fact that you are saying that abortion is 'crueller' than the pre-meditated murder of a partner is something I really can't be compatible to even begin to discuss. I'm not sure whether you are insinuating abortion is crueller than those things I listed because the 'victims haven't experienced life yet.' If you are - Well, I think you are very brave to say that. The idea that a woman who was raped and impregnated, who chooses to have an abortion, is on the same criminal level as a terrorist bomber - That's, yeah.

Abortion is also pre-meditated murder.
We shouldn't be asking the question, is abortion better or worse than a terrorist/abusive parent/abusive ex. Murder is murder is murder.
What we should be asking is, is it right or wrong? I get that you're sort of on the fence about this topic but do you find yourself swaying more to the abortion-is-ok side or abortion-is-bad side?

Are you calling the "thing" a "baby" from the moment of the egg being fertilised? Or is a "baby" in your terms further down the track?

Yes, from the moment the egg is fertilised, it has the potential to develop into a fully formed human.

[EEEEEEP]

Abortion is also pre-meditated murder.
We shouldn't be asking the question, is abortion better or worse than a terrorist/abusive parent/abusive ex. Murder is murder is murder

In ethics, we call that " deontology" where you cannot break the rules.
E.g. "Any murder is bad".

What others are looking at is Kanteon ethics is where you look at the greater good and go beyond "this is right" or "this is wrong".
We measure other things... such as "The amount of pain on the kid in the future (if they will be forever ill) or if a mother is in pain.

[elysepopplewell]

I just don't think abortion is murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human with intent. A fertilised egg is not a human,

Yes, from the moment the egg is fertilised, it has the potential to develop into a fully formed human.

It has the potential to be a human - but it is not a human.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that the intentional killing of innocent strangers in a terrorist attack is comparable to the removal of cells from a womb? I can't see those two on the same level at all. I'm reading your comments, it's not like I'm not open to the idea, I'm trying to find parts of your points to empathise with but I can't. Abortion is not murder in my opinion. And abortion is not comparable to the malice of terrorism. ESPECIALLY, because majority of abortions do not come from a place of malice.

[elysepopplewell]

In ethics, we call that " deontology" where you cannot break the rules.
E.g. "Any murder is bad".

What others are looking at is Kanteon ethics is where you look at the greater good and go beyond "this is right" or "this is wrong".
We measure other things... such as "The amount of pain on the kid in the future (if they will be forever ill) or if a mother is in pain.

I haven't heard these terms before - thanks for sharing! *Googles for more info*

[heids]

Murder is murder is murder.

Life isn't that black and white. There are SO many cases where it's not this straightforward.

Classic ethical dilemma - and though it's unrealistic the equivalents happen IRL:

You have a chance to change the out-of-control train to a different line, so it kills only one person rather than five. Is that murder? You have the chance to push a huge heavyset man in the way of the train which will slow it down so it won't run over five other people. Is that murder?

How about murder within wars, the death sentence, or killing someone to stop them killing others?

If you see someone stabbing someone else, and don't intervene, is that murder? How about if you know that a planned murder is to happen and you decide not to go and intervene?

Like, seriously, so many ways that prove that this is a very shades-of-grey moral topic, innately.

[EEEEEEP]

We shouldn't be asking the question, is abortion better or worse than a terrorist/abusive parent/abusive ex. Murder is murder is murder.

Yes, from the moment the egg is fertilised, it has the potential to develop into a fully formed human.

If murder is murder, why do people eat animals or kill animals to protect crops? (if they are anti abortion too). Those same people call for rapists to die or terrorists to die.

That is clearly a ethical inconsistency as "murder is bad " right?

I know it is a bit of a tangent, but I hope you get my point.

Most people here run on Kant's theories which is that things should be done for the greatest of society. E.g. Baby / human in pain for the rest of life > abortion in terms of pain.

[elysepopplewell]

Life isn't that black and white. There are SO many cases where it's not this straightforward.

Classic ethical dilemma - and though it's unrealistic the equivalents happen IRL:

You have a chance to change the out-of-control train to a different line, so it kills only one person rather than five. Is that murder? You have the chance to push a huge heavyset man in the way of the train which will slow it down so it won't run over five other people. Is that murder?

How about murder within wars, the death sentence, or killing someone to stop them killing others?

If you see someone stabbing someone else, and don't intervene, is that murder? How about if you know that a planned murder is to happen and you decide not to go and intervene?

Like, seriously, so many ways that prove that this is a very shades-of-grey moral topic, innately.

You're right - even in our legal system we see the different times when murder is mitigated to manslaughter - provocation, automatism, etc. These are controversial in their own right, but they do get due appreciation in the legal system. Because, "murder is murder" doesn't hold water when applied to every circumstance.

[jamonwindeyer]

Abortion is also pre-meditated murder.
We shouldn't be asking the question, is abortion better or worse than a terrorist/abusive parent/abusive ex. Murder is murder is murder.
What we should be asking is, is it right or wrong? I get that you're sort of on the fence about this topic but do you find yourself swaying more to the abortion-is-ok side or abortion-is-bad side?

Saying "murder is murder" is putting women who get raped and impregnated, then choose to get an abortion, in the same category as a terrorist. Whether you want to do that or not, that is what it is.

I'm absolutely abortion-is-ok in the sense that I am in favour of law changes that make abortions safer and prevent women from being abused/victimised is it as simple as "Abortion is legal at any point under any circumstance?" No, I personally don't think so, but yeah - Definitely I'm in the abortion-is-ok camp

[Wales]

Thanks patricia for all your questions! 

So if you saw a man/woman walking down the street, and I was going to stab them, would you try to stop me? I mean, I would assume so, because murder is wrong, right?
What if they're in really difficult circumstances or living in poverty? As soon as they walk out of your eyesight you'll likely forget about them. You're not going to offer to pay their bills, their taxes. You just don't want to see them get murdered!
(Also I'm sorry if I sound attack-y here, when I say 'you' I mean people in general, I don't mean you specifically

Ok so the signs aren't a problem, if you don't like what they say, don't look. You can't get beaten up by a sign.
With the verbal abuse, remember when you were in primary school and your mum would tell you, 'if someone says something mean to you or bullies you, just walk away'. It's funny how we seem to have forgotten that as we've grown older. If a woman decides to get an abortion, these people have every right to express their views and aim to change the woman's mind. Shouting 'baby murderer' - which, technically, would be correct - isn't going to kill you. I agree that it's not a nice thing to say, but if a woman has decided to end the life of her child then she should expect to face some criticism.

Abortion is also pre-meditated murder.
We shouldn't be asking the question, is abortion better or worse than a terrorist/abusive parent/abusive ex. Murder is murder is murder.
What we should be asking is, is it right or wrong? I get that you're sort of on the fence about this topic but do you find yourself swaying more to the abortion-is-ok side or abortion-is-bad side?
Yes, from the moment the egg is fertilised, it has the potential to develop into a fully formed human.

Completely agree with your point on how abortion is murder. There is no dispute in my opinion for that. It is the ending of the workings of a human life.

Where I find the conflict is whether permitting the act of abortion is justifiable. I think the idea of the lesser of two evils applies here. If a circumstance presented itself whereby the mothers life was in danger then I would see abortion as the more "humane" option to choose. Another example would be if some woman accidentally got pregnant and wanted an abortion. I would see that as immoral and would deny it.

Do I think abortion should be allowed? No
Do I think abortion is murder? Yes
Do I think abortion is as bad as a terrorist? No. I think it's unfair to draw that comparison, while they're both in essence the ending of a human life one is with more malicious intent then the other and therefore considered a greater evil.

Interesting discussion ya'll

[Wales]

Saying "murder is murder" is putting women who get raped and impregnated, then choose to get an abortion, in the same category as a terrorist. Whether you want to do that or not, that is what it is.

I'm absolutely abortion-is-ok in the sense that I am in favour of law changes that make abortions safer and prevent women from being abused/victimised is it as simple as "Abortion is legal at any point under any circumstance?" No, I personally don't think so, but yeah - Definitely I'm in the abortion-is-ok camp

Agreed as well. If nothing is going to stop those wanting abortions you may as well let them do it safely and reduce the risks. It's an immoral act but doing it properly is the less evil practice imo

[geminii]

So here is where you and I fundamentally disagree.

How is it cruel to take life from something that has no consciousness to realise what life is? I'd personally say it's far crueler for both the person, and their friends/family, to kill them at the age of 20.  If you have, say, 100 people who love your personality, it hurts them far more if you die at that point than if you died before you were born. And if you hadn't been born, they wouldn't have been "less happy" because you weren't there; they would have filled the gap with other friends.  Plus, the person themselves can feel the pain of knowing everything is about to end, whereas without consciousness in the first place, they don't realise they're missing a thing.

And in using birth control/contraception at all, you're doing just the same thing, just a tiny step earlier (so it's theoretically even worse hahaha): stopping countless new people from being born, thus robbing them of life.

I prefer the approach of improving the quality of life of those currently alive, rather than focusing on creating more people. Living in misery is worse than never getting the chance to live.

I understand you may think killing someone at an older age is worse than killing them in the womb - but do you believe that killing them in the womb is wrong, or do you think it's perfectly okay?

I also think there is some cognitive dissonance happening here.

To believe that abortion is as reprehensible as acts such as terrorism, murder, and torture and then walk around in a society where you probably encounter women everyday who have had abortions requires either some form of cognitive dissonance or a genuine belief that many of the people you meet are despicable people on par with terrorists and sociopathic serial killers.

All murder is bad, if I think abortion is wrong and then meet people who have had abortions, what am I supposed to do? If I express my opinion, it's bullying according to elysepopplewell. If I don't say anything, it's cognitive dissonance according to you. I don't have a meltdown and need to go to my 'safe space' every time I meet someone who has had an abortion.

I just don't think abortion is murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human with intent. A fertilised egg is not a human,  It has the potential to be a human - but it is not a human.

When do you define someone being a human then?

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that the intentional killing of innocent strangers in a terrorist attack is comparable to the removal of cells from a womb? I can't see those two on the same level at all. I'm reading your comments, it's not like I'm not open to the idea, I'm trying to find parts of your points to empathise with but I can't. Abortion is not murder in my opinion. And abortion is not comparable to the malice of terrorism.

People are misunderstanding my comments - a life is a life. A murder is a murder.
In 2015, 2 people in Australia died as a result of a terrorist attack.
In 2015, 80-90,000 abortions were performed.

The scale of the babies killed was far greater than the people killed in the terrorist attacks. I am looking at facts, not feelings. The number of babies aborted was 42,500 times the number of those killed in terrorist attacks.

What I am saying, is, that yes, terrorist attacks are obviously horrible and should be condemned - but the murder of innocent babies, by the tens of thousands and on a much greater scale than those killed in terrorist attacks - should be condemned too.

If murder is murder, why do people eat animals or kill animals to protect crops? (if they are anti abortion too). Those same people call for rapists to die or terrorists to die.

That is clearly a ethical inconsistency as "murder is bad " right?

I think eating animals is wrong, if you couldn't tell by my signature (). Killing animals to protect crops is ok because it is an act of self-defence - if you don't do it, you could starve.

Life isn't that black and white. There are SO many cases where it's not this straightforward.

Classic ethical dilemma - and though it's unrealistic the equivalents happen IRL:

You have a chance to change the out-of-control train to a different line, so it kills only one person rather than five. Is that murder? You have the chance to push a huge heavyset man in the way of the train which will slow it down so it won't run over five other people. Is that murder?

How about murder within wars, the death sentence, or killing someone to stop them killing others?

If you see someone stabbing someone else, and don't intervene, is that murder? How about if you know that a planned murder is to happen and you decide not to go and intervene?

Like, seriously, so many ways that prove that this is a very shades-of-grey moral topic, innately.

Yes, all of that is murder, obviously. In a moral dilemma like the train scenario, you have to make a judgement call. Where the lives of five are compared to one, you would have to go for the one person dying, because in that scenario you know nothing about any of the people and it's quite logical to say that five lives are worth more than one, although that one life is still worth a lot.

Saying "murder is murder" is putting women who get raped and impregnated, then choose to get an abortion, in the same category as a terrorist. Whether you want to do that or not, that is what it is.

I agree.

I'm absolutely abortion-is-ok in the sense that I am in favour of law changes that make abortions safer and prevent women from being abused/victimised

Sorry, got you mixed up with someone else

is it as simple as "Abortion is legal at any point under any circumstance?" No, I personally don't think so, but yeah - Definitely I'm in the abortion-is-ok camp

Why do you think it is ok, though?

[EEEEEEP]

Do I think abortion should be allowed? No
Do I think abortion is murder? Yes

If you think abortion is bad since its murder.. let me ask you a few q's
- Is killing terrorists bad?
- Is killing rapists bad?
- Should gun man who go on rampages be killed?
- Should child beaters  be killed?