Cultural appropriation ( or borrowing??)? Is it okay?

[elysepopplewell]

5. Regarding the power plays (as I mentioned in a precious post)
Is it cultural appropriation if westerns borrow other westerners cultures ?
Spanish, Portuguese, Greeks, Germans now do even take offence to things like copying accents, cultural events (Germans and Oktoberfest ).

There is definitely no powerplay between the Spanish and the Germans.

I only was talking about Western civilisation as being in a place of privilege before because it was in comparison to Asian cultures damaged by European pursuits. It is all relative, it is not West always prevails, especially when looking at two Western civilisations.

I get the impression you've seen a lot of people claiming offense to a lot of things, definitely more than I have. The way I navigate this is: I consider my own actions: will this offend someone? Could I do better, in my acknowledgements, or in the spirit of participation? If someone says to me, "Hey, what you're doing is actually kinda offensive because of XYZ," I'm going to take that on board and rectify - because why would I want to offend someone's culture?

In terms of stereotypes informing things - of course. But that doesn't mean that perpetuating negative stereotypes is OK, and nor am I denying they exist.

When I first heard about Suey Sins opening (as mentioned above) I was like "oh cool this looks trendy." I'm part of a Facebook group where they mentioned Suey Sins, and some people explained to me the reasons why they feel uncomfortable going there, including a girl I admire who has family that fled Shanghai in the era. I thought "Well why would I go to a bar that has really missed the mark in their branding and is offending people, when I can go to a bar that isn't appropriating anyone's culture in an insensitive way?" So I just took my business elsewhere.

Just because one person finds something cool and quirky, it doesn't invalidate the other person feeling offended by it.

Cultural appropriation is not as simple as blending cultures to create a new product or a harmony between cultures. The term cultural appropriation, at least in a sociological sense, refers to the use of another culture (tradition, customs, garments, etc) without permission, and typically in a way that depicts it inaccurately, or glorifies/exploits a traumatic time/experience.

People who call out cultural appropriation are not trying to create insurmountable divides between cultures. It's not about ruining anyone's fun - it's about recognising inappropriate actions or representations, and hopefully increasing awareness or appreciation at the same time.

It's also recognising that as humans in a multicultural world, we don't always get it right and there's always a lot to learn. I apply this to a lot of things - I've spoken to people about feminism before, and then someone's called me out for being eurocentric in my condemnation of certain practices, and since then I've made it my goal to be more intersectional in my approach to feminism. It's not about getting it right all the time, but I live by the idea that if people are offended by something that I can live without doing, (particularly if this community has been marginalised/oppressed, EVEN more so if by a system that I've benefitted from), then I have no problem in stepping back.

I made pasta tonight, I'm not appropriating Italian culture.

You're actually the first person to explain this to me in this kind of depth - so kudos for the excellent explanation there. It is definitely something worth thinking about - I change my mind on that - and it is really quite important for reasons you've outlined. I didn't really get it before and had a misconstrued idea of it. I'll be honest, the only reason why I didn't like it was it felt like people were telling me not to do things on arbitrary notions of not belonging to a said-cultural/ethnic group, which I didn't believe. But that isn't cultural appropriation; that is, if the activity didn't gloss/fetishise/glamorise/etc a cultural history/dominate a cultural/ethnic group. Cultural appropriation is more serious than that. Sorta ashamed I didn't know about that until now.

Thanks Peter! I only came to understand the issue this year. I'm still learning too

[EEEEEEP]

The term cultural appropriation, at least in a sociological sense, refers to the use of another culture (tradition, customs, garments, etc) without permission, and typically in a way that depicts it inaccurately, or glorifies/exploits a traumatic time/experience.

Hold on. I'm following
- Glorifying traumatic exp.. you can easily avoid  that
- Depicting things inaccurately (cultures change all the time... so how can one avoid cultural appropriation? By not ever referring that culture at all (because it's done badly a lot of the time)

Just because one person finds something cool and quirky, it doesn't invalidate the other person feeling offended by it. - Damned if you, damned if you don't,, so just avoid anything to do with culture at all?

I say this because it seems like the clear line between appreciation and appropriation is not very clear and cut.

[elysepopplewell]

Hold on. I'm following
- Glorifying traumatic exp.. you can easily avoid  that
- Depicting things inaccurately (cultures change all the time... so how can one avoid cultural appropriation? By not ever referring that culture at all (because it's done badly a lot of the time)

Just because one person finds something cool and quirky, it doesn't invalidate the other person feeling offended by it. - Damned if you, damned if you don't,, so just avoid anything to do with culture at all?

I say this because it seems like the clear line between appreciation and appropriation is not very clear and cut.

You're right, glorifying trauma = not ok.
Depicting things inaccurately - I'm not saying never refer to culture. As I said, I don't shy away from cultural experiences or the opportunity to learn or try more, but I never want to be ignorant about something (and in the age of google, we don't have much of an excuse about "choosing" to be ignorant lol). That's not to say I get it right every time, and I'm very open to someone pulling me aside and letting me know that I've missed the mark, I've hurt people, I've been insensitive, etc. Obviously I try not to be these things - but if you screw your head on and care to learn about these things then there's no need to shy away all together.

I don't think it's a damned if you do damned if you don't - I don't ever feel damned and I'm very interested in talking about, and participating in, cultural activities. You might be damned if you're entering a territory that you're not ignorant of and then someone calls you on it.

To me, the line between appreciating and appropriating isn't blurry. I ask myself: could this be offensive? Appreciating something isn't likely to cause offence to anyone. That's not to say I get it right every time, either. Not everyone is expected to know everything about everything, but I'll still try my best to understand and to be educated, as well to help others understand. And it's an effort of experience.  This isn't to say that because the line isn't blurry to me, I'm always right. Everyone is fallible, but I make it my business to do my best to learn from cultures rather than reduce them.

[peterpiper]

Everyone is fallible, but I make it my business to do my best to learn from cultures rather than reduce them.

Yeah and also it's important to give yourself a break whenever you do find yourself in the wrong and forgive yourself if you do happen to cause offence. The immediate reaction is to defend yourself and I think that's a natural response as we often do what we think is for the best and so we feel a multitude of feelings at once when confronted with something we thought harmless. From shame, humiliation and self-pity -- the idea isn't there to make you feel absolutely horrible and to antagonise you specifically. It's there for a greater purpose much bigger than you imo. Just be open to the possibility that it is okay to be wrong. It is a great responsibility to bear in mind, and unforeseen slip ups are to be expected.

[vox nihili]

1. Agreed (partially ), people who "appropriate ", are not trying to steal others cultures. Or trying to hijack it (which many people assume that westerns are trying to do).

2. - so what is malice and what is appropriate? There's no clear black and white. That depends on partially the receiver and the sender. The receiver may or may not find it appropriate.

For example some people find issue with "western" Chinese food, while I find it a non issue. Additionally,  I'm a fairly chill person, so I find appropriation okay. In fact, I find it kinda cool.

My friend doesn't care if fashions models are wearing kimonos at all! She finds it cool and interesting, as a fusion.

3. I take issue the statement of "everyone else trying to bend to our own". This is not an western thing or concept. If you go to Asia or South Africa, people assume that you'll follow Asian or South African food and cultural respected social rules/ customs.

4. Everything , whether you like it or not is informed by stereotypes. Westerners are generalised as rude, lazy and disrespectful people. The Japanese are generalised as traditional, polite, hard working people who like to drink.

I'm not condoning stereotypes, but there is some basis to generalisations (even though not all people may fall under those generalisations). Partially it's the media (especially the gross exaggerations), and partially, its real life.

5. Regarding the power plays (as I mentioned in a precious post)
Is it cultural appropriation if westerns borrow other westerners cultures ?
Spanish, Portuguese, Greeks, Germans now do even take offence to things like copying accents, cultural events (Germans and Oktoberfest ).

There is definitely no powerplay between the Spanish and the Germans.

Personally, I don't take issue with people adopting individual cultural practices of other cultures. This is how cultural exchange occurs, as evidenced by the millennia of cultural development. I think that considering this cultural appropriation is a step too far. It encourages this nationalistic notion that certain cultural practices are "owned" by a particular group, when the reality is that there are really no societies that can claim to have a culture that hasn't been shaped by their interactions with other cultures; this is how culture develops.

Where, however, members of a dominant cultural group seek to emulate members of another culture, usually only as a temporary thing, perhaps for entertainment, I think this is absolutely cultural appropriation. Participating in a broad range of cultural practices is fine. Pretending to identify with a particular culture, when you are clearly not from that cultural background, is appropriation.

[appleandbee]

Not sure if this have been discussed yet, but the way that cultural appropriation locks minority groups out of the market. Since dominant cultural groups usually have the first-mover advantage, large market share and often cuts corners with the authenticity of their products/training which lowers the cost of production (eg. if a Japanese sushi chef trains for 15 years as opposed to high school students simply doing it for part time money). Considering the the majority of customers of dominant cultures are ignorant about authenticity, minority groups or cultural appropriation, it makes it far more difficult for a minority group to set up their own business as they have to compete with people's acceptance (any being loyal customers) of dominant cultures' appropriation of their products. If they want to compete, they often have to resort to water down their own culture to compete with what the market already desires as well as the lowered costs of production. I'm not necessarily suggesting to ban all western owned yoga businesses or asian takeaway shops, but even licenses from various cultural bodies, adopting more traditional ingredients/brands or training practices or hiring an indigenous person to be a tour guide in relevant areas could go a long way.

[elysepopplewell]

Not sure if this have been discussed yet, but the way that cultural appropriation locks minority groups out of the market. Since dominant cultural groups usually have the first-mover advantage, large market share and often cuts corners with the authenticity of their products/training which lowers the cost of production (eg. if a Japanese sushi chef trains for 15 years as opposed to high school students simply doing it for part time money). Considering the the majority of customers of dominant cultures are ignorant about authenticity, minority groups or cultural appropriation, it makes it far more difficult for a minority group to set up their own business as they have to compete with people's acceptance (any being loyal customers) of dominant cultures' appropriation of their products. If they want to compete, they often have to resort to water down their own culture to compete with what the market already desires as well as the lowered costs of production. I'm not necessarily suggesting to ban all western owned yoga businesses or asian takeaway shops, but even licenses from various cultural bodies, adopting more traditional ingredients/brands or training practices or hiring an indigenous person to be a tour guide in relevant areas could go a long way.

It's an interesting point you raise that exists outside of the issue of cultural appropriation too. I know that to be a glass blower in the Venetian island of Murano, it's a 15 year apprenticeship usually! INSANE! And the glass, for an artwork, I think is well priced. But Venice is full of little shops that sell glass sourced international and painted. It makes it a lot harder for the Venetian authentic merchants to sell the work they've produced and perfected over a very long lineage. Of course this example isn't about cultural appropriation, but it is the first thing that came to mind when you mentioned that! As touristic consumers, and consumers in general, we have a responsibility to be educated if it's our desire to support authentic goods and the place they came from.

(side note from cultural appropriation)

[geminii]

This is a great debate!

Personally, I get a little tired of hearing 'cultural appropriation' thrown around. A lot of people say wearing braids is culturally appropriating, but I don't see how having a certain hairstyle could be so offensive to a large group of people. A lot of people say dressing up in another culture's clothing is culturally appropriating, but I don't see how your choice of clothes could cause any harm.

If I see a British woman wearing Indian clothes (I'm Indian), I'm not going to scream 'cultural appropriation' - I'm going to admire it, because I think Indian clothes look quite nice. There is no point in there where I would feel offended. I would not feel offended that a British woman is wearing Indian clothes, despite the fact that Britain brutally ruled India and threw people into poverty for a large part of the 20th century. People are free to wear what they like, and people shouldn't be restricted because it might 'offend someone'.

Now the only exception I have to this is clothing that is sacred to a community or culture. For example, if there is something that the Native American community has decreed that only Native Americans can wear, then it would be insensitive and rude to wear it. I think you need to have respect for the culture you're dressing up as and keep that in mind. 

Nowadays, people throw the phrase 'cultural appropriation' around left, right and centre. It's gotten to the point that when someone says 'cultural appropriation', I think of this. I absolutely agree that some clothes can be offensive to some cultures - like sacred Native American headdresses, or participating in 'blackface' events, but dressing up in another culture's general clothes, like Indian or Thai or Malaysian....I don't feel that's offensive.

[Savas_P]

This seems crazy, I would have thought taking something from another culture is positive because you are embracing the custom and it is bound to happen as relationships with different people expand. I guess it comes to authenticity on whether the representation of the group is offensive.

[meganrobyn]

And whether you as a culture have already trampled all over the other culture and taken as yours everything you want while establishing derogatory stereotypes around a bunch of other things that you use collectively to continue to discriminate against that group...