English as a Top 4 subject

[Yertle the Turtle]

I don't like English, but am not bad at it. I expect it to drag down my marks, however, as I do better at my other subjects. I think we need to keep a focus on English as a language so that people can speak it well, but I don't think that any of the English subjects that are in VCE are particularly helpful to most people, and therefore I don't think that it is a good thing that English is a subject that must be in your Top 4 subjects. There are maths geniuses, art geniuses and science geniuses out there who are brilliant in certain subjects, but because they aren't as good in English this could damage their marks, and their career path of choice they might not be able to get into. I think that English, while we should keep it in the curriculum, should not be a Top 4 subject.

[lovelyperson]

Gotta disagree with you there; English is such an important subject and it should be treated as such with a place in the top 4. It may be true that most people are never gonna write another text response after year 12, but it's the skills (e.g conveying ideas succinctly and clearly, verbal analytical skills..) that these tasks teach you that matter later in life. You're going to need these communication skills in the future regardless of your career choice.

And to frankly honest, English isn't a hard subject to score high in. Most people just assume it's hard and go in with the mentality 'whelp, just need a 25 for pre-reqs', but a high 30s - 40s is pretty easy if you put in the effort. The fact that it's the largest subject cohort makes it even easier.

[PhoenixxFire]

I agree with points you’ve both made here. I don’t think English should be a top 4 subject, but I do think you should have to get an S to be able to get an ATAR for the reasons lovelyperson said.

I think the problem with English is that even standard English is taught as text analysis rather than learning actual English. This varies by teacher, but the problem with this is that English teachers love English, whereas students may not, a lot of teachers I’ve had for English don’t bother explaining why the skills are important or how they are applicable to ‘real life’ which leads to disengagement, they just assume people will write for the sake of writing.

For example I really hated English by the end of 1/2 because I was like ‘if they want to know the themes in this text, why don’t they read the text?’ It was always taught as having to understand it myself, whereas it makes more sense to me to think of it as showing the examiners what I know.

[Mada438]

Not sure how it works for VCE, but im assuming that English being a "top 4" subject means its included in your ATAR no matter what other marks you have.
From a HSC perspective, English is the only subject that is COMPULSARY to do in year 11 and 12. There is no requirement that says you must do some level of maths for your hsc, you don't have to pick it. But English, you don't get a choice, you HAVE to do it.
In the hsc you have to do a minimum of 10 units (5 2 unit subjects or 4 2 unit+2 1 unit subjects) to be eligible for your hsc and English (regardless of your marks in everything else) is included in that 10 units.
I think it's pretty crappy, because I have a friend who's literally a human calculator that does 4 units of maths, engineering, chemistry, physics and business studies. He is more than capable of getting 95/100 and a band 6 in all of these subjects, yet he has to do English which he Is rubbish at. He got the equivalent of a D In his first 2 assessment tasks. By doing English, his marks will be dragged down significantly if he gets 95/100 in all other subjects but a 50/100 in English.
So in summary, I really don't think English should be that highly regarded. If you're good at it, then that's fine. But if you're not then why should your marks be dragged down

[appleandbee]

I don't think it should be top 4 (even though I studied a lot for it as a result and it worked well for my ATAR) but university pre-reqs for English (minimum study score of 25 for many courses) should be kept. The stakes at the top end of ATARs are very high and I don't think someone should be punished for receiving a 42 in English/any English requirement as opposed to a 48.

[MissSmiley]

Are you kidding!!

English must must must be in top 4 !!!
What's Australia for then?!! When we hear things like the Citizenship test getting harder and so much focus on language and values, we really understand the importance of doing English upto Year 12 and giving it so much priority as it's our Top 4!

So, 1000% agree with lovelyperson !! 

Teachers and the education system isn't trying to make our lives harder! Having it in the top 4 pushes students to give in their best and all of this is gonna be carried forward to the workforce! If it was choosing if you'd wanted to do English or not, that's gonna make life harder!!
If your English skills weren't refined (as they would be at the end of Yr 12,) you'd find it pretty hard to communicate professionally in the workforce!

Yes it's not fair for those who are academically gifted for Maths and Science, but c'mon !! You're living in Australia- you've gotta epitomise the culture. And a huge huge huge part of what makes Australia is the English Language!
So definitely has to be in the top 4 !

Whilst I may be a bit 'over the top' enthusiast for English, I do certainly respect all the subjects out there like Maths and Science and people that perhaps wanted to choose another subject in their top 4 rather than English.

[clarke54321]

After having completed both VCE English and Literature, and reflecting on my experience with both subjects, I tend to lean towards the "pro English in top 4" argument. Studying an English teaches one to properly empathise. Regardless of whether a student is completing a creative piece or a close passage analysis, they are taught to feel and think as another individual would in a circumstance that is often foreign to themselves. These are skills that build genuine compassion- a quality that is essential in any related context.

[snowisawesome]

I'm not a strong english student, but I reckon english should be taken out of your top 4 if you get 35 or above for your study score. If you get below 35 then it should still be in your top 4? Does anyone agree with this?

[Poet]

I disagree with MissSmiley's pro-argument, but only partially; although I understand the logic in placing English as a top 4 subject, (I mean, your argument about having decent English skills is great ), I think it should be seen as a minimum that people must pass (say, an S in the subject?). That way, we wouldn't have to stress about doing too well in our other subjects or missing out on a vital ATAR English requirement for the course we want to get into, we can just tick the "yes, I passed" or "no, I flunked it lol" box. We shouldn't be pitted against other student's marks in English, I don't think, because that just makes it all the more difficult to keep English in your top 4 if you're not the best at it. _{*cough, me, cough*}

[Yertle the Turtle]

I think that English is still an important part of the curriculum, and should be kept as a compulsory subject that you have to pass to get an ATAR, but the type of English that they teach is not going to help your level of understanding of the English language, it seems to me to be something that is dead-end. I don't disagree that English is part of being Australian, but not VCE English. I think that it shouldn't be a compulsory Top 4 subject.

[TheAspiringDoc]

Ideally I think it should be compulsory, for the above reasons.

However, schools that have bad English teachers are the reason I think it shouldn't be compulsory.
Bad maths teacher? Easy. Hit up the textbook and mark your answer objectively.
Bad English teacher? For a start, the textbooks often don't make sense IMO. Then, ask the teacher how to improve, only to be told for the umpteenth time "just improve your expression". Eugghhh

Anyway, I have a good English language teacher so my sympathies to those who aren't so fortunate I suppose?

[Poet]

@TheAspiringDoc, this is so true. My English teacher was so bad in year 10 I went from A+'s in English to D's and E's, and even after he got fired I've never recovered. I'm not sure whether to blame him or myself, but nevertheless I sympathise with everyone in the same boat.

[Quantum44]

Even if English wasn’t a compulsory top 4 subject, maths/science people wouldn’t really get an ATAR boost as the aggregate cut offs for each ATAR score would increase dramatically.

[Joseph41]

I'm not a strong english student, but I reckon english should be taken out of your top 4 if you get 35 or above for your study score. If you get below 35 then it should still be in your top 4? Does anyone agree with this?

What's your rationale?

[snowisawesome]

What's your rationale?

Don't have any rationale in particular, just had the idea