Where should drug laws lead?

[Calebark]

After reading some interesting points in the cannabis thread, I've decided to start a discussion about drug laws in general.

Should they lead to harsher prison sentences? Lenient prison sentences? Rehabilitation? Community service? Should the drug in question matter? I'm keen to hear different thoughts.

As always, please keep discussion civil.

[brenden]

Regardless of drug, it should lead nowhere to rehabilitation, assuming we are only talking about consumption.

Drug related crime should be punished, but everyone can agree on this.

Assuming we’re discussing a scenario where someone just, puts something in their own body, in isolation, without harming anyone else in the process, then anything other than rehabilitation is barbaric and insane.

[Mada438]

Okay, i want to raise an interesting thought i had the other day. It's in no ways sound so feel free to battle it

What if we legalised all sorts of drugs? Now hear me out
Psychologically, some people use drugs as a form of rebellion and seeming "cool" to rebel against the laws of society because its illegal
If we legalised everything then where does the rebellion go? What reason would people have to use them if it's not illegal anymore and thus not cool to rebel?

Obviously, this point has got some large holes in it i acknowledge that. But i just want to hear what people think...

[Poet]

After reading some interesting points in the cannabis thread, I've decided to start a discussion about drug laws in general.

Should they lead to harsher prison sentences? Lenient prison sentences? Rehabilitation? Community service? Should the drug in question matter? I'm keen to hear different thoughts.

As always, please keep discussion civil.

Hi Caleb, good thread.
I'm focusing in on that question about harsher sentences. Not harsher prison sentences, necessarily, but certainly a punishment that could act as a deterrent.
I find this a difficult concept to pin down. I mean, what drugs would lead to harsher penalties? Would it simply be the usage or possession of the drugs that we believe should lead to harsher penalties, or is it the acts done while under the influence of drugs that we should crack down on? How are we ever to prevent drug usage if the government cannot seem to quash the market anyway?

There was the story of that girl just the other day who pulled her eyeballs out of her own eye sockets due to an especially bad trip where she believed she was doing it as a sacrifice to God. Because of this story and other evidence, I believe that we should try our best as a community to prevent drug usage. That doesn't prevent people from dealing in the black market - I doubt anything will if you're addicted - but the law honestly doesn't seem to be doing the best job... Drug dealers are like the heads on a hydra; cut off one, and two more grow in its place.

I think that the use of cannabis, as a minor drug, should not lead to penalties unless there is a significant amount in a person's possession that is indicative of their role as a dealer; but a person under the influence of ice or another serious and potentially violent drug should be deterred from using it again. Drugs that are known to be harmful to not only the user, but society in general, should be held in a serious light. And right now, under Victorian law, they are. However, I also believe that rehabilitation is first and foremost, and that people addicted to these substances should be helped before being punished.
I think that CCOs are really good alternatives to imprisonment for people with addictions to serious drugs. They are free to live their lives, but are required to contribute to the community and attend rehabilitation.
If they are a danger to society, however, I feel like imprisonment is the only way to keep them and the rest of us safe.

I don't blame a person for an addiction they have - they may have originally taken the drug by choice, but addiction is not a choice, it's something that you need to do. I find it really frustrating that there's not more ways to look after addicts without imprisonment.

[Calebark]

What if we legalised all sorts of drugs? Now hear me out
Psychologically, some people use drugs as a form of rebellion and seeming "cool" to rebel against the laws of society because its illegal
If we legalised everything then where does the rebellion go? What reason would people have to use them if it's not illegal anymore and thus not cool to rebel?

Obviously, this point has got some large holes in it i acknowledge that. But i just want to hear what people think...

Good point personally, I don't think it'd change this sense of rebellion. It still wouldn't be acceptable in mainstream society, so it's still carry that edgy connotation. This is just my experience, so take it with a grain of salt, but I don't think rebellion is a large factor in drug use. Sure, for young teens smoking cannabis, they like to be r3bellious and 3dgy. But beyond that, I don't think the bloke taking codeine to stop hating himself so much, the girl taking MDMA to enjoy the party more, or the man smoking crystal because nothing else makes him happy give a rat's ass about being rebellious. They've got other reasons for taking drugs. That said, I am strongly in favour of decriminalisation of all drugs, just to make getting help that little bit easier.

Hi Caleb, good thread.
I'm focusing in on that question about harsher sentences. Not harsher prison sentences, necessarily, but certainly a punishment that could act as a deterrent.
I find this a difficult concept to pin down. I mean, what drugs would lead to harsher penalties? Would it simply be the usage or possession of the drugs that we believe should lead to harsher penalties, or is it the acts done while under the influence of drugs that we should crack down on? How are we ever to prevent drug usage if the government cannot seem to quash the market anyway?

There was the story of that girl just the other day who pulled her eyeballs out of her own eye sockets due to an especially bad trip where she believed she was doing it as a sacrifice to God. Because of this story and other evidence, I believe that we should try our best as a community to prevent drug usage. That doesn't prevent people from dealing in the black market - I doubt anything will if you're addicted - but the law honestly doesn't seem to be doing the best job... Drug dealers are like the heads on a hydra; cut off one, and two more grow in its place.

I think that the use of cannabis, as a minor drug, should not lead to penalties unless there is a significant amount in a person's possession that is indicative of their role as a dealer; but a person under the influence of ice or another serious and potentially violent drug should be deterred from using it again. Drugs that are known to be harmful to not only the user, but society in general, should be held in a serious light. And right now, under Victorian law, they are. However, I also believe that rehabilitation is first and foremost, and that people addicted to these substances should be helped before being punished.
I think that CCOs are really good alternatives to imprisonment for people with addictions to serious drugs. They are free to live their lives, but are required to contribute to the community and attend rehabilitation.
If they are a danger to society, however, I feel like imprisonment is the only way to keep them and the rest of us safe.

I don't blame a person for an addiction they have - they may have originally taken the drug by choice, but addiction is not a choice, it's something that you need to do. I find it really frustrating that there's not more ways to look after addicts without imprisonment.

I think you've got some great thoughts here. I definitely with the agree of CCO's rather than, say, prison time. I do have a question: how would we deter a person from using more serious drugs (such as ice)? For the sake of argument, let's assume they're a non-violent offender and haven't commited any crimes under the influence

[Yertle the Turtle]

I feel like it is a very difficult topic, as by making the laws harsher, the whole rebellion idea will be even more of a problem, while if you make them more lenient people I think will start to feel like it is not such a big deal, doing drugs, and I don't think that this is good either. I am personally in favour of total bans and far harsher punishments to get the message across that this is a problem. There needs to be more focus in wiping out those who get rich on other peoples' addictions, these are the lowest kinds of criminals imo. They get people hooked on drugs, and then make stacks of money out of them. The dealers need to have their businesses crushed, I believe. Others may disagree with me, but I see these people as a serious pollutant of society.

I'm really genuinely sorry if I've accidentally offended anyone here.

[Calebark]

I feel like it is a very difficult topic, as by making the laws harsher, the whole rebellion idea will be even more of a problem, while if you make them more lenient people I think will start to feel like it is not such a big deal, doing drugs, and I don't think that this is good either. I am personally in favour of total bans and far harsher punishments to get the message across that this is a problem. There needs to be more focus in wiping out those who get rich on other peoples' addictions, these are the lowest kinds of criminals imo. They get people hooked on drugs, and then make stacks of money out of them. The dealers need to have their businesses crushed, I believe. Others may disagree with me, but I see these people as a serious pollutant of society.

I'm really genuinely sorry if I've accidentally offended anyone here.

Do you think such harsh punishments will actually teach people that drugs usage is bad, or just that drug laws are bad? And do you think that drug users and drug dealers are in the same stream? You can punish dealers without punishing users (other than raising prices, but that's different to prison time).

You said it all respectfully dude, you don't have to worry about offending anyone. I'm a past user of shit (as I don't hide from), and no offense here at all

[Yertle the Turtle]

Do you think such harsh punishments will actually teach people that drugs usage is bad, or just that drug laws are bad? And do you think that drug users and drug dealers are in the same stream? You can punish dealers without punishing users (other than raising prices, but that's different to prison time).

I think that more focus should be laid on this societal issue, and its problems should be stressed to the young in particular, to teach people that the usage, or abuse, is the problem. Drug dealers deserve to go to prison, imo! Drug users have often been accidentally hooked, I have massive sympathy for those people, but not for those who hook people to harvest cash! That is definitely not OK, ruining someone else's life, for money! That is where I have the problem.

[Calebark]

I think that more focus should be laid on this societal issue, and its problems should be stressed to the young in particular, to teach people that the usage, or abuse, is the problem. Drug dealers deserve to go to prison, imo! Drug users have often been accidentally hooked, I have massive sympathy for those people, but not for those who hook people to harvest cash! That is definitely not OK, ruining someone else's life, for money! That is where I have the problem.

I agree here. However, I really don't think harsher sentences are the way to go. Hell, tthere are so many countries that have death penalties for minor drug use where this still persists. Punishment =/= help imo.

Would you be okay with minimising risk? For example, providing clean needles for users to decrease the risk of HIV and other fun diseases. This is helping those hooked, but not helping the dealers (they don't sell the needles). This isn't exactly encouraging drug use, but it's encouraging safe use, which I think is the very important distinction -- similar to teaching safe sex rather than teaching kids not to have it (but that's a whole other issues, so I won't derail haha).

[The Special One]

It's one thing to say people should be free to do what they want.

And it's another to watch families be destroyed because someone with a bright future made a mistake and is now addicted and needs to steal for a living.

Once you get addicted it's very hard to break that  even with rehabilitation the success rate is rather low  so I think focus needs to go to preventing drugs from circulating as much as possible.

Prison sentences for drug related crime are unfortunate but need to happen. I advocate the use of solitary confinement until drugs are out of their system and monitored by psychiatrists.

After that I think depends on the seriousness of the crime if it wasn't too serious like theft  they should be released but put on a strict rehab program and if they can stay clean they can be completely free. Ideally they won't have a criminal record so they can start fresh and find a job but that's not realistic.

If the crime was murder it's unfortunate but they'll need to stay in jail. The families of the victim need retribution and the crime has to be denounced no way around that.

For people saying if people only inject themselves what's the problem? Well
You see when they go into a drug induced psychosis and start assaulting and killing nurses and other workers then tell jay to the families of those emergency workers.

I also suggest everyone watches requiem for a dream, it's a very intense movie but if schools showed that movie to all students as well as the movie thirteen then I can guranteed that less people would be drawn to drugs seeing the negative effects they can bring.

This topic is a bit of a sensitive one  for me so I'll tread lightly as I've also  I've had experience with this topic on another forum  in the past and it wasn't a pretty sight and got locked , hopefully this one remains civil

[EEEEEEP]

It's one thing to say people should be free to do what they want.

And it's another to watch families be destroyed because someone with a bright future made a mistake and is now addicted and needs to steal for a living.

Once you get addicted it's very hard to break that  even with rehabilitation the success rate is rather low  so I think focus needs to go to preventing drugs from circulating as much as possible.

Prison sentences for drug related crime are unfortunate but need to happen. I advocate the use of solitary confinement until drugs are out of their system and monitored by psychiatrists.

After that I think depends on the seriousness of the crime if it wasn't too serious like theft  they should be released but put on a strict rehab program and if they can stay clean they can be completely free. Ideally they won't have a criminal record so they can start fresh and find a job but that's not realistic.

Hahah, good joke.

the use of solitary confinement until drugs are out of their system and monitored by psychiatrists? Do you realise how much you're gonna break people if you do that? Solitary confinement literally stuffs people up.

Also umm...
I would consider 40% a pretty good success rate for drug rehabilitation. That's nearly half the people that were on it, cured. 

[elysepopplewell]

Assuming we’re discussing a scenario where someone just, puts something in their own body, in isolation, without harming anyone else in the process, then anything other than rehabilitation is barbaric and insane.

I really like what you're saying at the end here. The act of actually taking the drug is in effect of one person immediately. If someone shoots up, discards their needle, fizzles out at home, then they don't need punishment, they need rehabilitation.

Of course there's more to drug crime and schemes than just the user. Traffickers, makers, sellers, mules..

Prison sentences for drug related crime are unfortunate but need to happen. I advocate the use of solitary confinement until drugs are out of their system and monitored by psychiatrists.

Cold turkey withdrawal can be extremely dangerous for drug users. I've read that a medicated detox from heroin, for example, is a better idea because as you're weened off the drug, your tolerance becomes lower, and you need less and less to reach that same level of high. Cold turkey withdrawal from drugs like heroin can seriously damage people through dehydration, projectile and consistent vomiting. So yeah, they physical issues are difficult. But the problem with solitary confinement is that dealing with such severe physical changes and abnormalities at the same time as being mentally taken off a drug - and kept in confinement that entire time? It seems to me like that's going to be a compounding issue for depression and anxiety - mental disorders that will make the recovery process even more difficult.

It also sounds like solitary confinement is intended in your sentence as a punishment, rather than a rehabilitation order. When you're pulling someone off a drug, you're trying to bring them back to a normality, to a level of human they once were. By throwing them into a cell on their own you don't bring humanity back to them.

Edit: response to OP:
Drug laws should lead to rehabilitation.

[ssillyssnakes]

I don't think that legalizing all drugs is a realistic nor effective way of dealing with preventing drug addiction. Not only would it make it easier for those already addicted to obtain drugs and make it easier for them to harm themselves, it just simply wouldn't work. People are still addicted to alcohol, and it is legal over the age of 18. People still abuse prescription medication. Few take drugs because they want to be edgy or rebel, but rather as a form of escapism or lack of substance in life. And drug legalization wouldn't prevent that, but rather encourage it, especially with there being fewer consequences if it is legal.

I think the priority and main course of action we should take is a treatment based solution to drug abuse. We have an issue in Australia of only helping those who are dangerously ill or those who can afford treatment(this is seen as abundantly clear in Eating Disorder treatment facilities - the only people who can get public treatment are those who are on deaths door, and even then the solution is "eat more", not focusing on the actual cause of the problem). With drug abuse, the majority of users cannot afford private rehab, nor will many who can volunteer to go. How can we expect to have less drug circulation if we aren't willing to help the people who are circulating the drugs?

Harsh prison sentences isn't the solution to this issue, in fact, it will probably lead to more substance abuse. Drug laws need to lead to rehabilitation if we want any chance of lowering the amount of people addicted to these dangerous substances.