Don't ever study languages at Monash [and other subjects to avoid]

[gemgem49]

You cant have just realised NOW that the Culture component is complete bullshit, what has happened to make you so angry about it?

I do agree though. There needs to be MORE HOURS DEVOTED FOR LEARNING THE LANGUAGE (um, 3 hours a week is not enough, even my German tutor agrees) and less for culture.

I get so angry over how terrible the Culture component is for German (no idea what it's like for French). I did Spanish for two weeks and their culture component was immensely better. There was a powerpoint with specific notes and we learned about Spanish history. German is so TERRIBLE. I stopped going at ALL because all we did was talk about REALLY OBSCURE THINGS relating to PHILOSOPHY. Germany has one of the most interesting histories, and we haven't learnt anything at all relating to it.

Why the hell is Culture worth 50% of your overall mark in second and third year WHEN IT'S CURRENT USELESS STATE. HONESTLY. I AM SO ANGRY.

PETITION TO MAKE LANGUAGES AT MONASH BETTER, ARGHGHGHH. I can't believe this crap two hour seminar called 'Culture' is even allowed to exist.

[Russ]

A major is only 8 units, so that's 25% spent on cultural interpretations. Not sure if that makes a difference to you but just saying

if i'm reading the handbook entry right, then only 2 of the 8 units for a major are culture-only, the rest are language/culture. so that's what (counts on fingers) less than 10% of the whole degree?
painful if you also have to do the breadth at umelb.

I meant that the french study you do will comprise much less than your entire degree of 24 units (which, you're right, is 20 max when breadth is considered). And then of that french study ~25% is culture. Of your entire degree, yeah <10%

[binders]

oh, so 1/4 of your major then. it seems like more of an issue when you've got 20 units to play with than 24 for some reason.

>gemgem
so it's really that bad?

[ninwa]

so Ninwa, your problems with languages @ monash mostly come down to how the cultural component is taught, and that it's compulsory?

what are the language units like? do you cover the grammar etc in good time?
I'm hoping to take languages at monash next year so your warning has really got my attention.

afaik, melbourne has a compulsory culture component when you do a language major, eg.
https://handbook.unimelb.edu.au/view/2010/!B-ARTS-MAJ+1017
and from speaking to a few people taking german subjects there, there is an element of literary analysis. Not something i'm looking forward to either, but if it's only two units out of 24, then it's not too bad.
what proportion of your major at monash is taken up with these culture subjects?

Yeah that's right.

Grammar and basic vocabulary is covered quite quickly. I took French from the beginning and after two years you are at the level of a VCE graduate, so it's quite fast... However, it's nowhere near as difficult as it sounds. It's actually quite manageable, and makes the language component more interesting because you're not just revising the same old stuff every week.

There's a difference between culture component and culture units.
Cultural component does not count as a separate unit - so for example, German Studies 8 includes 2 hours of language and 2 hours of culture a week but it's part of the same subject.
Culture units like "German dialects and dialectology" count as a separate subject and do not contain a language (i.e. grammar etc.) component, although some of them are taught in the language.

A major is 8 units. You don't have to take culture units to complete the major.
For example I planned to do French Studies 1-8 = 8 units to satisfy the major requirements. None of those subjects is a "culture unit" but each has a cultural component which you must pass in order to pass the subject itself.
Cultural component is usually worth 25% of your mark in 1st year and 50% thereafter, so I'd say approximately half of your major will be taken up by the cultural stuff. If you choose to do a cultural unit on top of that obviously it would make up even more of your major.

Some people will do French Studies 1-6 + two culture subjects = 8 units, for example. Depends on which level you start at too.


To whoever asked about law at Monash, it's quite good. We have some truly excellent lecturers and tutors - I've only had one really bad experience and that wasn't really the lecturer's fault (nobody did the readings so nobody could answer her questions, she snapped and told everyone to "piss off" + some other choice words an hour into a 3 hour lecture and stormed out of the room and refused to schedule a makeup lecture to go over the stuff we were supposed to do... Everyone did the readings from then on.)

[ninwa]

You cant have just realised NOW that the Culture component is complete bullshit, what has happened to make you so angry about it?

I wasted about 6 hours of my life last night attempting to discuss (in French, too) how a piece of bread is a metaphor for the creation and destruction of the universe, the Alps, flowers and leaves and the process of a piece of bread going stale, the Creation Story, last supper symbolism etc. That was my French culture assignment. It was... infuriating and I may or may not have snapped.

I get so angry over how terrible the Culture component is for German (no idea what it's like for French). I did Spanish for two weeks and their culture component was immensely better. There was a powerpoint with specific notes and we learned about Spanish history. German is so TERRIBLE. I stopped going at ALL because all we did was talk about REALLY OBSCURE THINGS relating to PHILOSOPHY. Germany has one of the most interesting histories, and we haven't learnt anything at all relating to it.

French was okay for one semester where we learned about contemporary issues such as secularity etc... one semester of bliss, then back to analysing bread metaphors. Sigh.

[gemgem49]

There's a fair bit of "culture" in the language units themselves.

I learn more about Germany's culture from my German language tutor than I have in two semesters of 'Culture'.

To whoever asked if it's really 'that bad' then yes, it really is. I have been to only three seminars for Culture this semester because every time we go I sit there for two hours learning absolutely nothing because the lecturer just waffles on about nothing the entire time. He actually tried using slides once and spent an entire two hours on ONE sentence on ONE of his slides. It is infuriating! It's essentially the poor man's philosophy. All the students who enjoy philosophy/debating about nothing or obscure symbolism get really into the class, everyone else sits there wanting to die.

Ninwa - I'm majoring in German. So am I able to do 8 units of German language (I have to do an extra semester of uni anyway because of my dip. languages and screw up with my first year sequence) instead of ANY culture electives? Because that would be amazing... unless I just take subjects when I go on exchange that ACTUALLY relate to German history/culture :3

[ninwa]

Ninwa - I'm majoring in German. So am I able to do 8 units of German language (I have to do an extra semester of uni anyway because of my dip. languages and screw up with my first year sequence) instead of ANY culture electives? Because that would be amazing... unless I just take subjects when I go on exchange that ACTUALLY relate to German history/culture :3

I'm not sure unfortunately. I'm taking that option for French which is explicitly allowed in the handbook (see "Alternative entry point 1: Extended basic proficiency major sequence" http://www.monash.edu.au/pubs/handbooks/aos/ug-french-studies.html). The handbook didn't mention anything like that for German.

Definitely email your coordinator - it would suck to go to all that effort only to have your major not get recognised.

[binders]

thanks ninwa & gemgem, you’ve scared me a little, but given me a better idea of what to expect. i’ve got all summer to think about my major (if i get in).

I wasted about 6 hours of my life last night attempting to discuss (in French, too) how a piece of bread is a metaphor for the creation and destruction of the universe...

No wonder you’re pissed off with the culture bit! so how does the bread metaphor work?  :laugh:

luckily i *am* one of those people who is happy to sit around debating about nothing/obscure symbolism/pointless rubbish, or, as i prefer to call it “coalescing the vapour of human experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl4VD8uvgec)

we spent a good while dissecting metaphors in yr12, but it was Prévert so at least we got some poetry with it.
re german history lectures, UC Berkeley have some podcast lecture series on german history if you’re interested.
http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details.php?seriesid=1906978484

[Eriny]

I think it's different elsewhere. I know at ANU, while you need to one cultural unit to major in a language (or more depending on what level you start at), the actual subjects themselves, which have 5 hours of class per week, have pretty much no cultural component. Like, you kind of learn a bit about culture on the way, like reading the news in the language, or even just talking about ideas that can't really be translated into other languages. So yeah, not much cultural stuff unless you actually take a cultural course.

[Muuru]

Don't do it. Study abroad at the country for a semester or two instead. You will gain far more language proficiency that way that you will ever get at Monash.

Hasn't this always been common sense, regardless of the university? Irrespective of whether you're learning a language at Monash, ANU or Harvard, the crude reality is that you're never, ever going to become proficient in another language just by rocking up to lectures and tutorials. The cultural component at Monash, while unfair and unnecessary, is only a small part of a bigger problem across the board.

Like most, I was initially attracted to the idea of studying a language at university when I first enrolled two years ago, but I was deterred after somebody offered me some valuable advice. Don't waste your time studying languages at any university; they provide an incredibly poor setting for any beginner to properly learn a new language. You can't seriously expect to sharpen your language skills in an environment where every student is struggling to learn the basics. If you ever hope to attain an advanced level of proficiency, you need to be constantly immersed in your desired foreign language. The best way to go about doing this is by going on exchange or living in another country which speaks your desired language, as you mentioned.

Even without the cultural component at Monash, it wouldn't have made a difference whatsoever. You still would've come out of your degree thinking that you've wasted several years of your life fruitlessly trying to learn a foreign language with other confused, bewildered and struggling students. I really do feel sorry for those who've fallen into this pitfall - language courses at universities are nothing but money sinks.

[IntoTheNewWorld]

Don't do it. Study abroad at the country for a semester or two instead. You will gain far more language proficiency that way that you will ever get at Monash.

Hasn't this always been common sense, regardless of the university? Irrespective of whether you're learning a language at Monash, ANU or Harvard, the crude reality is that you're never, ever going to become proficient in another language just by rocking up to lectures and tutorials. The cultural component at Monash, while unfair and unnecessary, is only a small part of a bigger problem across the board.

Like most, I was initially attracted to the idea of studying a language at university when I first enrolled two years ago, but I was deterred after somebody offered me some valuable advice. Don't waste your time studying languages at any university; they provide an incredibly poor setting for any beginner to properly learn a new language. You can't seriously expect your language skills to develop in an environment where every student is struggling to learn the basics. If you ever hope to attain an advanced level of proficiency, you need to be constantly immersed in your desired foreign language. The best way to go about doing this is by going on exchange or living in another country which speaks your desired language, as you mentioned.

Well that's idealistic but not everyone can go on long term exchange ^_^

I do agree that it's impossible to attain any amount of proficiency through just turning up to tutes/lectures, but I still think it's possible to learn significant amounts without living in a country where the language you're learning is spoken, although it will be harder and require more motivation to self learn.

and at least languages at University are around 9000 times better than learning it at High School, although I must admit my exposure has only been through crashing Korean/Chinese lectures, which I believe do not have a cultural component lulz.

[RainerWolfram]

Can I also add that

Don't ever study physics at Monash

EVER

+1. And also, don't ever use that vending machine near the engineering labs and lecture room (E1). It stole my superannuation money.

[98.40_for_sure]

Can I also add that

Don't ever study physics at Monash

EVER

+1. And also, don't ever use that vending machine near the engineering labs and lecture room (E1). It stole my superannuation money.

Engineering degree means compulsory physics yeah? if yes... 8==D _/'''''\-O

[RainerWolfram]

Can I also add that

Don't ever study physics at Monash

EVER

+1. And also, don't ever use that vending machine near the engineering labs and lecture room (E1). It stole my superannuation money.

Engineering degree means compulsory physics yeah? if yes... 8==D _/'''''\-O

Only if you're going to do a double degree with science.

[98.40_for_sure]

Can I also add that

Don't ever study physics at Monash

EVER

+1. And also, don't ever use that vending machine near the engineering labs and lecture room (E1). It stole my superannuation money.

Engineering degree means compulsory physics yeah? if yes... 8==D _/'''''\-O

Only if you're going to do a double degree with science.

Ooh... i think i gotta do foundation physics anyway. Heard anything about that? or is it run by the same dude...