Has anyone had this kind of upbringing?

[slothpomba]

For some reason western culture doesn't enforce strict parenting with regards to academic achievement probably through our PC culture. More importantly I feel that our society doesn't emphasize how important it is to integrate science, arts, etc into our culture.

I dont know if our society not carrying out the first sentence is a bad thing.. or due to our PC culture. I wouldn't like to see ultra strict parenting (mainland chinese style) in regard to our academic pursuits.

Also, i think relaxed parenting is probably the way to go about it. My parents were relatively relaxed but also showed that they were there and still took an interest in what i did and what happened to me. Both those things are probably ingredients in the recipe to success.

I've seen people and even friends, who have had very strict parents. Sure they behave but so do i and i dont have strict parents. Some of them were pushed incredibly academically hard... it's just plain sapped the personality out of them. They dont have many interests   or enjoy much  outside of what happened in VCE. It's just a little sad if you ask me. Seems like a hollow shell of what a teenager should be and enjoy.

Also, if they're strict who knows the kids might rebel.

I reckon a good mix of being relaxed and providing an open environment but while still caring and guiding them is the way to go.

[Eriny]

I probably have said this before, but it's not only Asian parents who push their children. I knew a Russian and a Ukrainian and their parents were really strict. For one my Russian friend who's mum is a mathematician told her son that he didn't have the competence to become a mathematician, whilst my Ukrainian friend had a full on anxiety attack in an universuty physics exam because his parents are both physicists and they constantly put pressure on him.

For some reason western culture doesn't enforce strict parenting with regards to academic achievement probably through our PC culture. More importantly I feel that our society doesn't emphasize how important it is to integrate science, arts, etc into our culture.

I think there is a bias in the way literature is appreciated and the Nobel Prize is awarded. Assumbly, we reward the things we value, and if Asian cultures value different things than European ones. Therefore, it's more likely that Europeans will win what are essentially European awards, such as the Nobel Prize.

That's why I don't agree with measuring development through GDP. Just because we value a high GDP, doesn't mean that others will prioritise it as well.

For some reason western culture doesn't enforce strict parenting with regards to academic achievement probably through our PC culture. More importantly I feel that our society doesn't emphasize how important it is to integrate science, arts, etc into our culture.

I dont know if our society not carrying out the first sentence is a bad thing.. or due to our PC culture. I wouldn't like to see ultra strict parenting (mainland chinese style) in regard to our academic pursuits.

Also, i think relaxed parenting is probably the way to go about it. My parents were relatively relaxed but also showed that they were there and still took an interest in what i did and what happened to me. Both those things are probably ingredients in the recipe to success.

I've seen people and even friends, who have had very strict parents. Sure they behave but so do i and i dont have strict parents. Some of them were pushed incredibly academically hard... it's just plain sapped the personality out of them. They dont have many interests   or enjoy much  outside of what happened in VCE. It's just a little sad if you ask me. Seems like a hollow shell of what a teenager should be and enjoy.

Also, if they're strict who knows the kids might rebel.

I reckon a good mix of being relaxed and providing an open environment but while still caring and guiding them is the way to go.

I'm inclined to agree. I don't think we actually do have an overly 'PC' culture (I mean, in the long term, we are able to publish whatever political opinions we want pretty much and have all sorts of freedoms to express ideas - even very stupid and potentially damaging ideas - which is historically quite rare).

I think strict parents work for some people and absolutely fail to work for others. But. even where strictness does work, you lose in building a compassionate relationship with your parents (e.g. how can you ask for relationship advice from someone who locked you in your room and starved you until you learned a piece for piano?). So, if you are going to be 'strict', you need to be able to balance that with the fact that the role of the parent isn't necessarily just a disciplinarian - they can als be an advice giver, for instance.

[Cianyx]

Creativity and innovation has never been hindered in Asian countries. They have shown historically to be inferior to the Europeans in terms of creativity. One only needs to compare the countries to see that China and Japan has been outdone in virtually every creative area whether it may art, literature, music or inventions. China's last great burst of innovation prior to the late 20th century came from the Song Dynasty a millinium ago. The education system has nothing to do with it.

Besides that, even if it is true that their brutal education inhibits their ability, it is important to note that Japan is still the top country in the area of robotics and electronics. Most of the major Asian countries also outdo most current European countries in terms of Research and Development as well

[EvangelionZeta]

Creativity and innovation has never been hindered in Asian countries. They have shown historically to be inferior to the Europeans in terms of creativity. One only needs to compare the countries to see that China and Japan has been outdone in virtually every creative area whether it may art, literature, music or inventions. China's last great burst of innovation prior to the late 20th century came from the Song Dynasty a millinium ago. The education system has nothing to do with it.

Besides that, even if it is true that their brutal education inhibits their ability, it is important to note that Japan is still the top country in the area of robotics and electronics. Most of the major Asian countries also outdo most current European countries in terms of Research and Development as well

I'm sorry, but the first half of your post is the most ridiculous overgeneralisation I've ever seen.  How much do you actually know about Asian art, literature and music?  Yes, most of it hasn't really hit the spotlight in the West, but that's because it has to be translated first before Western culture even becomes aware of it.  I went to Japan fairly recently, and most of the people there hadn't heard of people famous in the West, such as Jane Austen, Van Gogh, etc. - in the same sort of sense, I'm sure that many of them might be inclined to think "Wow, our culture has so many more famous artists than other cultures".  It's all relative.

Also, what do you mean precisely in regards to innovation?  I know as a fact that many of the greatest works in the Chinese literary canon  (Journey to the West, Dream of the Red Chamber) were composed well after that, for instance...

In regards to history as well, I'd like to point out that Europe has historically always been in a state of interaction, with nations constantly at war, borrowing from each others' language/culture, etc.  In contrast, look at Asia; apart from the fact that China and Japan share half of a writing system, and apart from a couple of similarities between languages, Asian countries have stuck mostly to themselves, experiencing civil wars.  Spreading of culture often arises from conflict and, of course, cross-cultural interaction; in contrast to this, the fact that Asian countries have stuck mostly to themselves means that their culture has had less opportunity to become more prolific.

[Cianyx]

If you are sure that my observations are wrong, you are free to dispute it. But, yes, I did overgeneralise. I failed to take into consideration that a lot of Asian literature is quite esoteric. For example, the authors for The Water Margin, Dream of the Red Chamber and Journey to the West are often disputed. It is quite possible that a number of others have faded into obscurity but this could be incorrect.

By innovation, I meant technological innovation, not literary.

Lastly, Asian countries did indeed experience a lot of interaction with other nations. Take the Silk Road for example. It has been used for Silk trade with other nations for a very long. Ditto for the spice trade. The prominent belief of Buddhism also meant that East Asian nations borrowed a lot from India.

[EvangelionZeta]

If you are sure that my observations are wrong, you are free to dispute it. But, yes, I did overgeneralise. I failed to take into consideration that a lot of Asian literature is quite esoteric. For example, the authors for The Water Margin, Dream of the Red Chamber and Journey to the West are often disputed. It is quite possible that a number of others have faded into obscurity but this could be incorrect.

By innovation, I meant technological innovation, not literary.

Lastly, Asian countries did indeed experience a lot of interaction with other nations. Take the Silk Road for example. It has been used for Silk trade with other nations for a very long. Ditto for the spice trade. The prominent belief of Buddhism also meant that East Asian nations borrowed a lot from India.

In regards to trade, don't quote me on this (history is a bit shoddy), but I'm fairly certain that it was mostly just "herpa derp we'll give you shiz and you give us shiz, coolios", nothing like the manner in which English people were all made to learn French and then famous musicians went internationally to study and so forth.  Buddhism is going back ages ago (at a time when you know, Genghis Khan and co. could still go off internationally and invade China), not at a time when Asian countries were still disputing with each other all the time.  On that note, I'm pretty sure during the immediate millenia when Buddhism spread to China (early AD), Asian nations such as China were at the apex of the world technologically...

[Chavi]

Asian nations such as China were at the apex of the world technologically...

And now they're good for manufacturing and outsourcing Western-made products.

Also interestingly, Asian countries seem to be behind musically. From what I understand Western styles of music (classical, pop, electronica) are imported into China, and not the other way around.

That said, today's young progenitors of classical music in Australia are generally Asian.
Inherent Asian musical talent, or overbearing parents?

[Cianyx]

They trade products commonly produced in their lands. That is, in a way, immersing themselves with each others culture. Silk is a cultural product of the land and is traded with other countries. When people trade, they also bring their language and culture with them. A lot of religious conversions occur through trade itself. If you look at South East Asia, countries there have strong Islamic and Hindu beliefs as well as traditions.


I don't really understand the rest of your post. :/

[Menang]

Asian nations such as China were at the apex of the world technologically...

And now they're good for manufacturing and outsourcing Western-made products.

Also interestingly, Asian countries seem to be behind musically. From what I understand Western styles of music (classical, pop, electronica) are imported into China, and not the other way around.

That said, today's young progenitors of classical music in Australia are generally Asian.
Inherent Asian musical talent, or overbearing parents?

I vote overbearing parents. Or maybe not overbearing, but just the culture that asian kids should learn piano/violin.

I get what you mean about western music styles being imported into Asia. I find a lot of C-Pop/K-Pop/J-Pop kinda similar to each other. But then again, I don't really listen to that type of music so I'm not one to say. I'm sure a lot of asian music fans would disagree.

[EvangelionZeta]

Also interestingly, Asian countries seem to be behind musically. From what I understand Western styles of music (classical, pop, electronica) are imported into China, and not the other way around.

That said, today's young progenitors of classical music in Australia are generally Asian.
Inherent Asian musical talent, or overbearing parents?

You're affirming the consequent - just because Asian music isn't exported much doesn't mean that it's "behind".  In terms of what you're saying, it's not even Western styles that are being imported into Asia - it's more just American (note, not Western - American) music that's getting big there.  Ask someone in China/Japan if they know who AC/DC is, or Nightwish; in this case, it's nothing to do with culture, but more to do with the fact that rich American artists have the wealth and popularity to expand globally. 

As somebody who dabbles a bit in C-Pop/J-Pop, Asian popular music tends to still differ in terms of construction - it's usually a lot more serene, and the lyrical content so forth is generally quite a bit different to that of Western stuff.

In terms of the Asian classical music issue, it's more to do with the fact that orchestral instruments have taken over the world.  I'm not going to claim to be an expert on this issue (Ninwa, are you around?), but Asian music is based on pentatonics, whereas Western stuff has...more notes to play around with.  The West isn't suddenly going to just reduce the notes it generally works with - it's more about Asian classical composers seeing a bunch of new styles which expand beyond what they're used to, and adapting towards them.  Take this entire paragraph with a grain of salt (this is where I really have little to no idea, in all honesty), but at least for me, I can't see a culture as passionate as the West suddenly deciding to back down into the serenity of Asian classical music, which is all almost meditative.

@Asian musical talent, ask someone who knows, eg. Ninwa.  Do note though that at the very least (and I know this as fact), the musical standard in places like Japan and China ****s all over Australia (and we like to value our musical scene...).  Also, a lot of famous characters in the musical field nowadays (not just drilled kids who get technical skillz really quickly) are Asian, such as Lang Lang, Seiji Ozawa, etc.

They trade products commonly produced in their lands. That is, in a way, immersing themselves with each others culture. Silk is a cultural product of the land and is traded with other countries. When people trade, they also bring their language and culture with them. A lot of religious conversions occur through trade itself. If you look at South East Asia, countries there have strong Islamic and Hindu beliefs as well as traditions.


I don't really understand the rest of your post. :/

Basically, Buddhism era=era when China was still open to lots of interaction with other nations in a more open (lol overuse of the word open) way, and where stuff like Mongols invading (ie. international threats still mattering) was important.  In this era, lots and lots of innovation and advancement.

Then China becomes all insular, sticks to itself, and only gets culture through trade.  Meanwhile in Europe, nations such as England and France are having hissy fits at one another, forcing each others' nations to learn each others' languages, interact and understand each other through diplomacy, etc.  See how this forces more cultural development, in comparison to a nation that is content to let some materials pass around, but which is otherwise happy to just sit back and lol?

Asian nations such as China were at the apex of the world technologically...

And now they're good for manufacturing and outsourcing Western-made products.

Also interestingly, Asian countries seem to be behind musically. From what I understand Western styles of music (classical, pop, electronica) are imported into China, and not the other way around.

That said, today's young progenitors of classical music in Australia are generally Asian.
Inherent Asian musical talent, or overbearing parents?

I get what you mean about western music styles being imported into Asia. I find a lot of C-Pop/K-Pop/J-Pop kinda similar to each other. But then again, I don't really listen to that type of music so I'm not one to say. I'm sure a lot of asian music fans would disagree.

K-Pop/J-Pop difference doesn't count - the two countries are close and share a lot of pop culture from what I hear.  It'd be like comparing Australian and American music.  C-Pop (China being the more insular big Asian nation) has its own distinct sound which is a bit more serene and ballady than the more upbeat K-Pop/J-Pop.  It's like how very European music is often a lot more metal/bubblegum poppish, whereas the more mass-market American stuff sounds more electronic and technoish (or something like that).

[Cianyx]

Basically, Buddhism era=era when China was still open to lots of interaction with other nations in a more open (lol overuse of the word open) way, and where stuff like Mongols invading (ie. international threats still mattering) was important.  In this era, lots and lots of innovation and advancement.

Then China becomes all insular, sticks to itself, and only gets culture through trade.  Meanwhile in Europe, nations such as England and France are having hissy fits at one another, forcing each others' nations to learn each others' languages, interact and understand each other through diplomacy, etc.  See how this forces more cultural development, in comparison to a nation that is content to let some materials pass around, but which is otherwise happy to just sit back and lol?

The Mongolian Empire was established in 1206 whereas Buddhism was discovered in China at about 100 CE? What innovation and advancement specifically did this bring?

Trade is a form of diplomacy, which as you said, encourages cultural development. I don't see what your point against this is. Interacting and understanding each other occurs during trade as well. Missionaries, scholars, interested people are amongst others who go on trade journeys in an attempt to understand other cultures. Trade is not restricted just to the exchanging of stuff for cash

[EvangelionZeta]

Basically, Buddhism era=era when China was still open to lots of interaction with other nations in a more open (lol overuse of the word open) way, and where stuff like Mongols invading (ie. international threats still mattering) was important.  In this era, lots and lots of innovation and advancement.

Then China becomes all insular, sticks to itself, and only gets culture through trade.  Meanwhile in Europe, nations such as England and France are having hissy fits at one another, forcing each others' nations to learn each others' languages, interact and understand each other through diplomacy, etc.  See how this forces more cultural development, in comparison to a nation that is content to let some materials pass around, but which is otherwise happy to just sit back and lol?

The Mongolian Empire was established in 1206 whereas Buddhism was discovered in China at about 100 CE? What innovation and advancement specifically did this bring?

Trade is a form of diplomacy, which as you said, encourages cultural development. I don't see what your point against this is. Interacting and understanding each other occurs during trade as well. Missionaries, scholars, interested people are amongst others who go on trade journeys in an attempt to understand other cultures. Trade is not restricted just to the exchanging of stuff for cash

Point taken re: my missing the Mongols by a millenia (>.>).  And I wasn't saying Buddhism brought about innovation and advancement - it was more a reply to your saying Asia was open to really open interaction at one point (ie. two millenia ago), and me stating that that's why that period was such a golden age.

@diplomacy, sure, but there's a difference between Asia's sort of sitting back going "LOL OTHER NATIONS" and Europe shoving each other's throats down each other all the time.  Even in the Mongol period which you alluded to (1200s?), Asia was ahead, with the printing press, the compass, and gunpowder all being well in use whilst Europe was still obtaining these technologies.  Then there's a lack of international war over there, and Asia stagnates.

Believe it or not, war is significant for technology.  When in war, countries work harder than usual in getting ahead - look at the (not really a war but the point stands) Cold War, where Russia suddenly pushes ahead, and where the US is trying to maintain a lead.  Take http://science.howstuffworks.com/war-drive-technological-advancement.htm/printable for instance; as it states, stuff gets developed for war, and then gets transferred for non-war use.  This in turn leads to intellectual and cultural development; war gives rise to heights of emotions (happiness, suffering, etc.) and gives commentators things to comment on.  How much of greatest Western literature is at least partially built upon warfare?

[Chavi]

"I think the Chinese parenting approach has its value in that it is great at producing child prodigies in music and math. The problem of course is those are restricted fields. The draw back is that few Chinese kids turn out very well equipped for success in the modern world. The reason is that all that rote learning and drilling isn't conducive to developing creative thinking abilities; and avoidance of sleepovers, school plays, sports, etc. doesn't make them very team oriented - a real draw back in the modern world. I'm speaking from the experience of living and working in China for 11 years. My Chinese staff all have very high IQ's, possibly higher than the Westerners in the office, and they can all calculate the most complex math problems in their heads while I'm still fumbling with my calculator. But few of them have the skills to lead a team or solve a real problem in today's business world. At the end of the day I'd hire an American from a second rate university over a Chinese with top grades from the top university in China. Why? They know about team work and can think outside the box.

It seems ironic that when people in China are questioning the Chinese approach to parenting and education that an American professor (albeit of Chinese ancestry) is promoting that same method that has been found wanting here to a Western audience. But I don't want to totally diss the Chinese approach - I think there has to be a middle way. Unfortunately this article doesn't promote a balanced approach. Western parents who adopt the Chinese approach in its entirety will come to rue the day."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html?mod=WSJ_hp_us_mostpop_read#articleTabs_comments%3D%26articleTabs%3Dcomments%26commentId%3D1942437

[EvangelionZeta]

"I think the Chinese parenting approach has its value in that it is great at producing child prodigies in music and math. The problem of course is those are restricted fields. The draw back is that few Chinese kids turn out very well equipped for success in the modern world. The reason is that all that rote learning and drilling isn't conducive to developing creative thinking abilities; and avoidance of sleepovers, school plays, sports, etc. doesn't make them very team oriented - a real draw back in the modern world. I'm speaking from the experience of living and working in China for 11 years. My Chinese staff all have very high IQ's, possibly higher than the Westerners in the office, and they can all calculate the most complex math problems in their heads while I'm still fumbling with my calculator. But few of them have the skills to lead a team or solve a real problem in today's business world. At the end of the day I'd hire an American from a second rate university over a Chinese with top grades from the top university in China. Why? They know about team work and can think outside the box.

It seems ironic that when people in China are questioning the Chinese approach to parenting and education that an American professor (albeit of Chinese ancestry) is promoting that same method that has been found wanting here to a Western audience. But I don't want to totally diss the Chinese approach - I think there has to be a middle way. Unfortunately this article doesn't promote a balanced approach. Western parents who adopt the Chinese approach in its entirety will come to rue the day."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html?mod=WSJ_hp_us_mostpop_read#articleTabs_comments%3D%26articleTabs%3Dcomments%26commentId%3D1942437

I entirely agree with this comment, and it applies to my own experience as well with a lot of Chinese people I've met.  China is learning - Mrs. Yale Professor of Law is just an extreme idiot.

[Chavi]

"I think the Chinese parenting approach has its value in that it is great at producing child prodigies in music and math. The problem of course is those are restricted fields. The draw back is that few Chinese kids turn out very well equipped for success in the modern world. The reason is that all that rote learning and drilling isn't conducive to developing creative thinking abilities; and avoidance of sleepovers, school plays, sports, etc. doesn't make them very team oriented - a real draw back in the modern world. I'm speaking from the experience of living and working in China for 11 years. My Chinese staff all have very high IQ's, possibly higher than the Westerners in the office, and they can all calculate the most complex math problems in their heads while I'm still fumbling with my calculator. But few of them have the skills to lead a team or solve a real problem in today's business world. At the end of the day I'd hire an American from a second rate university over a Chinese with top grades from the top university in China. Why? They know about team work and can think outside the box.

It seems ironic that when people in China are questioning the Chinese approach to parenting and education that an American professor (albeit of Chinese ancestry) is promoting that same method that has been found wanting here to a Western audience. But I don't want to totally diss the Chinese approach - I think there has to be a middle way. Unfortunately this article doesn't promote a balanced approach. Western parents who adopt the Chinese approach in its entirety will come to rue the day."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html?mod=WSJ_hp_us_mostpop_read#articleTabs_comments%3D%26articleTabs%3Dcomments%26commentId%3D1942437

I entirely agree with this comment, and it applies to my own experience as well with a lot of Chinese people I've met.  China is learning - Mrs. Yale Professor of Law is just an extreme idiot.

I enjoyed reading her parenting style. Which family wouldn't like to raise a bunch of child prodigies who will later earn their millions and bring honour to their parents in the lucky country?