Has anyone had this kind of upbringing?

[Zien]

I think a lot of people are skipping over the fact that Asian parents still rely upon their children, especially males, after they retire. It's not uncommon to see Asian parents, their children and their spouses living under one roof. More likely than not, it'll be the Asian parents + their child + his spouse under one roof with the other children supporting them financially.

Just as a quick note on the creativity/innovation in Chinese history, I really think the cuisine should fit into this. Although technology advancements is the base criteria for such things, the huge variety of cuisine and the different techniques used plays a small but significant role. In my 'culture' of Fuzhou, soups are a quintessential accompany to the meal. Every week, I would have like 4 different types of soup, some containing a 3-5 ingredients and others involving 10-20+ ingredients that harmonize together. Some sweet. Some bitter like hell. Some oddly sour. And some savory or Umami I think was the term. My mum knows dozens of them. And that's only soups.

Sure you can claim that such recipes are passed down generation by generation, but you cannot deny its origins. Why anyone would place tree bark, roots of other trees and flowers, berries, some fermented vegetables etc. together in a soup deliberately without going "Oh hey, let's try something new today" is beyond me.

[ninwa]

In terms of the Asian classical music issue, it's more to do with the fact that orchestral instruments have taken over the world.  I'm not going to claim to be an expert on this issue (Ninwa, are you around?), but Asian music is based on pentatonics, whereas Western stuff has...more notes to play around with.  The West isn't suddenly going to just reduce the notes it generally works with - it's more about Asian classical composers seeing a bunch of new styles which expand beyond what they're used to, and adapting towards them.  Take this entire paragraph with a grain of salt (this is where I really have little to no idea, in all honesty), but at least for me, I can't see a culture as passionate as the West suddenly deciding to back down into the serenity of Asian classical music, which is all almost meditative.

Hai sorry I left the thread because I can get overly defensive of China and didn't wanna get into a shitstorm.

Re: pentatonics, yep. That's why pretty much anybody could play a few notes and make it sound "Asian". The only personal exposure I've had to Asian classical music is being made to learn a piece written by my piano teacher at the time and that was shit, but then again most modern composers are pretty terrible. Having listened to a fair bit of traditional music however, I'm inclined to agree with the meditative comment. When you grow up accustomed to the likes of firey Liszt and darkly passionate Chopin, Asian music tends to seem... bland.

@Asian musical talent, ask someone who knows, eg. Ninwa.  Do note though that at the very least (and I know this as fact), the musical standard in places like Japan and China ****s all over Australia (and we like to value our musical scene...).  Also, a lot of famous characters in the musical field nowadays (not just drilled kids who get technical skillz really quickly) are Asian, such as Lang Lang, Seiji Ozawa, etc.

Haha. No talent here. Just a lot of exposure to the musical world. I would add this disclaimer:

the musical technique standard in places like Japan and China ****s all over Australia

hence the term "Chinese fingers", referring to the stereotypical ability of Asian musicians to play things with extraordinary technical skill and very very ordinary expression.
I would still say the majority of famous classical pianists are Western. However, there are as you said many up-and-coming brilliant Asian pianists. For those who are interested, I recommend you Youtube Nobuyuki Tsujii - don't Wikipedia him, Youtube him first. I'd say he shits over a lot of the Western pianists today.

[ninwa]

I think a lot of people are skipping over the fact that Asian parents still rely upon their children, especially males, after they retire. It's not uncommon to see Asian parents, their children and their spouses living under one roof. More likely than not, it'll be the Asian parents + their child + his spouse under one roof with the other children supporting them financially.

Dear God I hope not.

Seriously though, I think that comes from the deeply-rooted culture of filial piety. I don't think that's really a direct cause of this insistence that your children be the best of the best. I would (cynically) posit that the need to compete with other parents (my child got 100% what about yours?) has a greater influence.

[Zien]

It's definitely a declining concept but it still happens. My uncles still have that kind of system going on in Singapore. My cousin got married recently, having lived with his parents so far, and his wife moved in with them. Same story with my another one of my cousins.

Nevertheless, point taken. That said, I wouldn't say that it's the competition between parents that gives cause for them to be strict with their children's study. Sure, they would be proud if they had done X and Y, but I believe that they want their children to take the opportunities that lay before them and become the best at it.

"If he could be a musical sensation, he can learn <insert instrument> and let's see if he could be. If he could be an academic genius, let's be strict with his studies so he 'wastes' less time on the internet, games and extracocurricular activities. He can learn how to be socially active when he grows into an adult." <-- My postulation on what a strict Asian parent might think. Although why the piano and the violin are the most encouraged instruments to learn is quite beyond me.

[QuantumJG]

^ majority japanese LOL. But I did discuss this with EZ and its true social and financial situations of each country affect their performance in terms of this intellect discussion.

I must admit that my Russian friend did spend 7 years in Japan because his father (a physicist) was working in research over there.

The most well recognized mathematician is Euclid who was Egyptian

No he was Ancient Greek.

Damn you wikipedia!!!

For some reason western culture doesn't enforce strict parenting with regards to academic achievement probably through our PC culture. More importantly I feel that our society doesn't emphasize how important it is to integrate science, arts, etc into our culture.

I dont know if our society not carrying out the first sentence is a bad thing.. or due to our PC culture. I wouldn't like to see ultra strict parenting (mainland chinese style) in regard to our academic pursuits.

Also, i think relaxed parenting is probably the way to go about it. My parents were relatively relaxed but also showed that they were there and still took an interest in what i did and what happened to me. Both those things are probably ingredients in the recipe to success.

I've seen people and even friends, who have had very strict parents. Sure they behave but so do i and i dont have strict parents. Some of them were pushed incredibly academically hard... it's just plain sapped the personality out of them. They dont have many interests   or enjoy much  outside of what happened in VCE. It's just a little sad if you ask me. Seems like a hollow shell of what a teenager should be and enjoy.

Also, if they're strict who knows the kids might rebel.

I reckon a good mix of being relaxed and providing an open environment but while still caring and guiding them is the way to go.

I'm inclined to agree. I don't think we actually do have an overly 'PC' culture (I mean, in the long term, we are able to publish whatever political opinions we want pretty much and have all sorts of freedoms to express ideas - even very stupid and potentially damaging ideas - which is historically quite rare).

I think strict parents work for some people and absolutely fail to work for others. But. even where strictness does work, you lose in building a compassionate relationship with your parents (e.g. how can you ask for relationship advice from someone who locked you in your room and starved you until you learned a piece for piano?). So, if you are going to be 'strict', you need to be able to balance that with the fact that the role of the parent isn't necessarily just a disciplinarian - they can als be an advice giver, for instance.

I agree with the second part, but I stand by my view that Australia being too PC with regards to putting pressure on their kids. For an instance when I was in year 11 and I was studying at a tennis club, a mother came up to me and said "Don't put too much pressure on yourself and you can only do your best" and so on and in my mind I thought WTF, I want to exceed my best.

In Australia we have polar opposites where Asian/European parents are too pushy and get results and westernized parents who don't push their kids at all and much fewer get results. So there is nobody (well maybe a minority) who reaches that happy middle. You can't deny that if you want results, you need to push yourself?

"I think the Chinese parenting approach has its value in that it is great at producing child prodigies in music and math. The problem of course is those are restricted fields. The draw back is that few Chinese kids turn out very well equipped for success in the modern world. The reason is that all that rote learning and drilling isn't conducive to developing creative thinking abilities; and avoidance of sleepovers, school plays, sports, etc. doesn't make them very team oriented - a real draw back in the modern world. I'm speaking from the experience of living and working in China for 11 years. My Chinese staff all have very high IQ's, possibly higher than the Westerners in the office, and they can all calculate the most complex math problems in their heads while I'm still fumbling with my calculator. But few of them have the skills to lead a team or solve a real problem in today's business world. At the end of the day I'd hire an American from a second rate university over a Chinese with top grades from the top university in China. Why? They know about team work and can think outside the box.

It seems ironic that when people in China are questioning the Chinese approach to parenting and education that an American professor (albeit of Chinese ancestry) is promoting that same method that has been found wanting here to a Western audience. But I don't want to totally diss the Chinese approach - I think there has to be a middle way. Unfortunately this article doesn't promote a balanced approach. Western parents who adopt the Chinese approach in its entirety will come to rue the day."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html?mod=WSJ_hp_us_mostpop_read#articleTabs_comments%3D%26articleTabs%3Dcomments%26commentId%3D1942437

This quote is a rather interesting one.

During tutorials in my summer subject, almost everybody doesn't discuss any problem and you usually find yourself working by yourself (which can be done at home). What startled me the most was when the tutor asked an actuarial student a question, she literally regurgitated a section of the textbook so there was absolutely no original thought.


    

[QuantumJG]

the musical standard in places like Japan and China ****s all over Australia

Lol Australian music is s***! The same goes for Australian TV, I watch the news, but as for TV shows I will usually only watch American stuff.

I personally hate the way that western music is going because it's only commercialized rubbish, so I usually hold onto 60's, 70's, 80's and some of the 90's music where originality still existed. Our top song last year was "like a G6" I mean come on, over 50 years ago there was music that actually tried to mean something.

Also most Post-docs go over seas to do their work because Australia just can't offer the quality of research. I personally would love to go to Germany if I reach post-doc level.

[Eriny]

That's true, Australia has a lot of problems in terms of our media being dominated by the US and 'brain drain' in universities. I'm not sure why this is. It probably has to do with the fact that it is much cheaper to buy a show from the US than to make a local show, and shows that are made locally tend to be low cost productions (the news, reality shows, sketch comedies). As for research, I think it's a matter of prestige, which we are building on.

[TrueTears]

Dude the Russians/Germans are BEASTS! Most Eurasians are.... I have a serb friend who is like a tennis pro, skips SACS to play comps but the teachers forgive him, would have aced VCE if he could be that little bit more bothered. Still got 98.9 (Y)

I hate how everyone says Asians are pro. I think Asians reach a high standard of whatever they do through ardent practice, but honestly, the Russians/Germans/French are I believe the most naturally talented throughout history etc. Only the Japanese come close to be honest. Not being racist, this is just be looking at Nobel Prizes, historical mathematicians and writers etc.

Practise and natural talent go hand in hand. If Asians can achieve better than Russians/Germans or whatever through brutal practise, then they ARE better because they can practise to get better.

[iffets12345]

But eventually, we must concede that natural talent/passion+ practise > practise and expressionless Chinese fingers.

[Cianyx]

@diplomacy, sure, but there's a difference between Asia's sort of sitting back going "LOL OTHER NATIONS" and Europe shoving each other's throats down each other all the time.  Even in the Mongol period which you alluded to (1200s?), Asia was ahead, with the printing press, the compass, and gunpowder all being well in use whilst Europe was still obtaining these technologies.  Then there's a lack of international war over there, and Asia stagnates.

None of these can be accredited to the Mongolian invasion as all of them were invented prior 1200. None of them were made in reaction to any specific wars either. Besides that, three of the examples (left out papermaking) were invented specifically in order to improve trade.

Believe it or not, war is significant for technology.

I never argued otherwise. Any sort of incentive is enough for man to advance himself. For every piece of technology invented during wartime, an equal amount of technology is invented during peace.

[EvangelionZeta]

But eventually, we must concede that natural talent/passion+ practise > practise and expressionless Chinese fingers.

Yes, of course, but at the same time there are Chinese pianists who play with natural talent/passion and not just with expressionless Chinese fingers - we just have to ignore the majority (because the number of practiced Chinese pianists is greater, hence a greater number of expressionaless ones).

[ariawuu]

the Russians/Germans/French are I believe the most naturally talented throughout history etc. Only the Japanese come close to be honest.

Throughout history ? How about China? They invented toilet paperrr ?

But yeah I see what you're saying about asians.. I don't know if there are more dumb asians than there are smart asians.. seeing the TB culture that's further expanding..

(sorry if i say the weirdest things) *peace*

[echenzi]

But eventually, we must concede that natural talent/passion+ practise > practise and expressionless Chinese fingers.

Yes, of course, but at the same time there are Chinese pianists who play with natural talent/passion and not just with expressionless Chinese fingers - we just have to ignore the majority (because the number of practiced Chinese pianists is greater, hence a greater number of expressionaless ones).

The ability to play with passion probably relates to the ability to sense and understand passion. Using an easy example, most pianists probably would not recreate the aesthetics of Beethoven's Fur Elise unless they had any understanding of the emotions in the piece (love for a woman?). Most chinese pianists start at a young age, and the younger we are the lower our EQ ( you may even argue chinese kids are denied the freedom of emotional expression anyway). Hence during their development as a pianist they may spend many years playing without the emotional expression, and hence they become comparatively dull pianists.

[lilaznkev1n]

My parents are asian and are not like that but they just want me to study hard and do well.
When I told them I got 45/50 in accounting they were annoyed that I only got 90% but then I told them that it is not a percentage but a ranking and that it is the top 2% so they are happy now
Not sure how my parents will react if I get below an A in a 3/4 subject.

[EvangelionZeta]

But eventually, we must concede that natural talent/passion+ practise > practise and expressionless Chinese fingers.

Yes, of course, but at the same time there are Chinese pianists who play with natural talent/passion and not just with expressionless Chinese fingers - we just have to ignore the majority (because the number of practiced Chinese pianists is greater, hence a greater number of expressionaless ones).

The ability to play with passion probably relates to the ability to sense and understand passion. Using an easy example, most pianists probably would not recreate the aesthetics of Beethoven's Fur Elise unless they had any understanding of the emotions in the piece (love for a woman?). Most chinese pianists start at a young age, and the younger we are the lower our EQ ( you may even argue chinese kids are denied the freedom of emotional expression anyway). Hence during their development as a pianist they may spend many years playing without the emotional expression, and hence they become comparatively dull pianists.

This doesn't change what I'm arguing though.  Sure, a lot of Asian pianists will turn out as you've described.  However, you need to consider also that anybody who wants to succeed in an area (and particularly in music) needs to be technically proficient, which means lots and lots of practice (I know plenty of aspiring musicians, white and Asian, who practice for ungodly hours every week).  My argument is that at the core of Asian countries, there are still enough naturally expressive and talented musicians to match those in others - it's just that said countries look bad because in comparison these musicians are smaller in terms of making up the overall musical population, due to the higher number of technically proficient musicians as a whole.  If you want an example of somebody with a drilled, Asian upbringing, who is also amazing at music, just look at Ninwa...