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November 01, 2025, 01:08:13 pm

Author Topic: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)  (Read 4671 times)  Share 

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man0005

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Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« on: January 29, 2011, 07:43:08 pm »
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Just wondering whether a teacher would accept using too much indicator (methyl orange) as a source of error

luken93

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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2011, 08:00:23 pm »
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Just wondering whether a teacher would accept using too much indicator (methyl orange) as a source of error
I don't think it alters the reaction at all (hence it wouldn't), but I might be wrong.
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Pixon

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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2011, 08:09:35 pm »
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Well indicators are slightly acidic/alkaline...so perhaps using too much can have an affect on your concentrations (though probably not much). To be honest, I haven't seen an official answer to this, but this is just what I can think of as an answer.
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luken93

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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2011, 08:25:06 pm »
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Well indicators are slightly acidic/alkaline...so perhaps using too much can have an affect on your concentrations (though probably not much). To be honest, I haven't seen an official answer to this, but this is just what I can think of as an answer.
Better wait for thushan, he was telling me the errors he had at the workshop, and he wrote 2 pages worth...
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man0005

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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2011, 08:33:34 pm »
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yeah hmm
thats what i thought Pixon
the acidic methyl orange could react with the base and you end up recording a smaller titre as a result
but idk :S

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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2011, 09:58:27 pm »
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Although it might alter the reaction (if you used a large considerable amount), I wouldn't put it down in a SAC.

Pixon

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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2011, 10:20:39 pm »
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I haven't looked at titration carefully enough to state the extent of an error that can occur in overusing indicator...but I would think it's worth mentioning since using an incorrect amount can cause a change of the end-point. (of course I don't know for sure having never done a Chem SAC)
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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, 10:44:06 pm »
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I think just putting in say, 3-4 drops won't do much, and we're probably expected to just assume the effects are negligible
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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, 10:49:36 pm »
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I think just putting in say, 3-4 drops won't do much, and we're probably expected to just assume the effects are negligible

+1, therefore not making it an error (endpoints are never perfect anyway in SAC titrations).

There is a difference is adding say a beaker load on indicator... The teacher would probably say you were an idiot, rather than it being a valid error in such cases :)

man0005

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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2011, 10:53:49 pm »
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oh okay
well in that case, does anyone have a suggestion for another error I can list :P

Pixon

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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2011, 10:58:27 pm »
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Hmm...well obviously 3/4 drops (if you were meant to use say 2 drops) would be negligible and not worth writing in a SAC, but I've seen people who have added 7-10 drops simply by pushing too hard on droppers and they definitely couldn't say that there was no affect in doing so since they couldn't produce concordant titres with it. So yeh..10 may be pushing it with a satisfactory level of prac skill, but 7 drops still isn't a great amount over the 2 "suggested" drops.

@man0005
What errors do you have already?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 11:08:46 pm by Pixon »
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man0005

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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2011, 11:49:15 pm »
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umm it's kinda been hard to choose errors to mention since the teacher has given us like a paragraph to write on each error and how it affects the experiment  :o

The first one i did was "incorrectly identifying the endpoint" (both too early and too late). If any of you think thats not an appropriate error please tell me :)

And now I need one more. I've thought about a few possible errors such as parallax errors but I find that I can only write max 2-3 lines and it ends up looking so blank :(
Any ideas for an error which i could extensively analyse :P would really help

thushan

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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 01:40:16 pm »
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With that idea of too much indicator being a source of error, it's legitimate.

In using an indicator the aim is to make sure the endpoint and the equivalence point are the same or are as close to each other as possible - this maximises accuracy. We can look at the endpoint and the equivalence point in terms of pH, as the endpoint of a particular indicator is dependent on the pH of the entire solution only, and the equivalence point would occur at a specific pH.

I'm going to give a really detailed explanation of this just to clearly show what happens

Suppose that we are titrating 20.00 mL of 0.1000 M NaOH with 0.1000 M HCl. The equivalence point would be at a titre of 20.00 mL. A chemist has a hypothetical indicator with pKa = 7 (at pH 7 of solution the indicator is in the middle of changing colour). Suppose (s)he is overenthusiastic with the indicator and adds too much of it.

So we dump in 20.00 mL of HCl, and let's assume that all the HCl reacts with the OH- ions (let's ignore any reaction with the indicator and with water). This is the equivalence point. But is it the endpoint? The species present are Cl-, Na+, H2O, OH- (from self-dissociation of water, can be neglected), HIn, In- and H+. BUT since the chemist put too much indicator in, [H+] >>> 10^(-7). So pH (at equivalence point) ~ 4 (for instance). BUT the colour change starts to occur when pH ~ 8; this is the endpoint. Inaccurate.

However, if only like 1 drop of indicator is added, then pH (endpoint) ~ pH (equivalence point), so no problem, provided you choose the correct type of indicator.

A good way to investigate if too much indicator would cause inaccuracies is to draw a titration curve with equivalence point in the middle of the steep bit, drawing where the endpoint would be in curve, and then varying the pH of the equivalence point.

Anyway to other possible sources of error - i usually have:

- parallax
- in transferring solution into conical flask, not wiping outside of pipette after sucking up liquid (this causes more than the accurate amount of liquid to be transferred)
- not washing down conical flask after transferring solution from pipette and touching to side of flask to remove correct amount of liquid
- not leaving the correct amount of liquid in the pipette after transferring into flask
- not washing down flask with wash bottle just before endpoint (need to do this because you're swirling flask during titration)
- endpoint/equivalence point discrepancies (eg. incorrect indicator used, endpoint occurring only after excess reagent is added, etc.)
- not using half-drops in titrations
- careless errors (eg. washing volumetric glassware with wrong reagent, washing conical flasks with reagent, leaving funnel in burette during titration, etc.)
- washing storage beakers with water immediately before storing reagent in it (dilutes reagent)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 01:43:52 pm by thushan »
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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2011, 01:49:22 pm »
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Another error I had was walking under the ceiling fan in the Chem lab with my precipitate on a sheet of filter paper and consequently having half my precipitate disappear into a white puff of smoke in front of my face. WHY WOULD YOU HAVE A CEILING FAN IN THERE, SERIOUSLY.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 01:52:06 pm by shinny »
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man0005

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Re: Titration Question (Titrating a base with an acid)
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, 04:48:47 pm »
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hmm thats kinda what I was thinking Thushan. but after reading some of the other posts, I'm not really sure.

whats the general consensus? should I use it or choose another one to be safe? :S