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November 01, 2025, 03:11:44 pm

Author Topic: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)  (Read 3331 times)  Share 

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luffy

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Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« on: April 18, 2011, 09:07:53 pm »
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Hey guys,

I have altered the question from the previous thread slightly.... Could someone please help me with it? Any even "thoughts" on how to do the question would be helpful.

I'm not entirely sure if this question is within the scopes of the specialist maths course because I couldn't do it :P I didn't get it from any textbook, and I just thought up the question myself.  >:(

Question: "Find the minimum distance between the two graphs and

I know how to do the question if a point on either graph is known. However, in this case, neither is known.

Good luck and thanks in advance :D
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 09:10:44 pm by luffy »

enpassant

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 10:01:29 pm »
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minimum distance approx = 0.427592
between (0.331695, 1.110022) on y=x^2+1 and (0.568071, 0.753705) on y=sqrt(x)

luffy

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2011, 10:16:59 pm »
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minimum distance approx = 0.427592
between (0.331695, 1.110022) on y=x^2+1 and (0.568071, 0.753705) on y=sqrt(x)

I was discussing this question with Brightsky.... I forgot what my answer was xD

What was your working out to get to your answer? I would love to see some reasoning...

Thanks a lot.

Mao

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 11:07:30 pm »
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You can use partial differentiation and solve the partial derivative of the distance function in two directions simultaneously for a minima. Or use the generalized and systematic method of Lagrange Multipliers (based off the partial differentiation method).
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luffy

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 11:43:35 pm »
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You can use partial differentiation and solve the partial derivative of the distance function in two directions simultaneously for a minima. Or use the generalized and systematic method of Lagrange Multipliers (based off the partial differentiation method).

I don't know what either of those are xD. However, it might be essentially the same as what Brightsky was telling me. He solved all of these using the theory that the line connecting the curves, when they are closest to each other, will be perpendicular to one of the curves.. Please tell me his theory was correct...... xD

If you have time, Mao, would you be able to show me a worked solution the question?

If you have time..... lol

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 11:58:53 pm »
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Brightsky is correct I think. Take a fixed point on y = x^2 + 1. Now imagine a circle with that centre slowly increasing its radius. When it first hits the other curve, it's going to be tangent to that curve. So line from that centre to the other curve would be perpendicular to that curve.
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Mao

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 11:59:14 pm »
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I'm trying to think of a counter-example to the perpendicular line thing, but it seems pretty good at the moment (assuming the functions are well-behaved). You can find the equation of the normal as a function of x1, and the maxima/minima will occur when this normal is perpendicular to the gradient of the other line at the point of intersection.

And the two methods I used both involve partial derivatives, which are not part of specialist. I shall leave them for later. :)
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luffy

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2011, 02:04:53 pm »
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I'm trying to think of a counter-example to the perpendicular line thing, but it seems pretty good at the moment (assuming the functions are well-behaved). You can find the equation of the normal as a function of x1, and the maxima/minima will occur when this normal is perpendicular to the gradient of the other line at the point of intersection.

And the two methods I used both involve partial derivatives, which are not part of specialist. I shall leave them for later. :)

Because you mentioned partial derivatives, I looked them up and they have spiked my interest xD.

You are doing exactly as I was doing - I just don't understand why it will ALWAYS be a perpendicular line to one of the curves... If it is always the case, is there a mathematical method of proving it?

Any help on this issue would be splendid.

EDIT: I just saw Thushan's post, and the whole idea of perpendicular lines is beginning to make more sense to me - Thanks Thushan, Brightsky and Mao -> You're all legends :D
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:07:23 pm by luffy »

enpassant

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2011, 02:53:11 pm »
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and are exactly the same shape. The conjecture 'it will ALWAYS be a perpendicular line to one of the curves' cannot be true because you cannot favour one over the other.

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 04:51:52 pm »
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d(x^2 + 1 - sqrt(x))/dx = 0?
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Mao

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 07:23:12 pm »
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d(x^2 + 1 - sqrt(x))/dx = 0?

No. We're not talking about vertical height. We're talking about minimum distance.
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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 07:31:42 pm »
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and are exactly the same shape. The conjecture 'it will ALWAYS be a perpendicular line to one of the curves' cannot be true because you cannot favour one over the other.

I think what brightsky suggested is that the line of shortest (or longest) distance is orthogonal to both curves.
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Mao

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 08:18:57 pm »
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I'm trying to think of a counter-example to the perpendicular line thing, but it seems pretty good at the moment (assuming the functions are well-behaved). You can find the equation of the normal as a function of x1, and the maxima/minima will occur when this normal is perpendicular to the gradient of the other line at the point of intersection.

And the two methods I used both involve partial derivatives, which are not part of specialist. I shall leave them for later. :)

Because you mentioned partial derivatives, I looked them up and they have spiked my interest xD.

You are doing exactly as I was doing - I just don't understand why it will ALWAYS be a perpendicular line to one of the curves... If it is always the case, is there a mathematical method of proving it?

Any help on this issue would be splendid.

EDIT: I just saw Thushan's post, and the whole idea of perpendicular lines is beginning to make more sense to me - Thanks Thushan, Brightsky and Mao -> You're all legends :D

Partial differentiation, as you would have worked it out, is just differentiating against one variable while holding another variable constant. The method is simple, though there are quite a bit of theory in multivariable about it (i.e. partial derivative is different to total derivative/material derivative, etc). In our case, we make the assumption that our two variables are both independent variables, thus partial differentiation is justified.

The square of the distance function be defined as

We require a minimum or maximum distance, thus we find:



Solving the above would give us x1 and x2, the x coordinates of points on the two functions that give minimum/maximum distance.

We postulate that the line joining these two points must be orthogonal to both lines. The gradient of this line is , thus it must satisfy:



These two equations are exactly the same as the partial differentiation method. Thus the postulate above is proven to be true.



One algorithm for solving using the 'orthogonal to both graphs' is:

1. Find the normal of at any , you should arrive at

2. Find the intersection of this normal to , that is, solve for in terms of

3. Find such that , that is, substitute the expression for from above into to express the LHS in terms of , then solve the equation for
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enpassant

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 08:46:46 pm »
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Now can you find x1 and x2, the shortest distance and show orthogonality.
I cannot see any problem with your explanation.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 08:58:32 pm by enpassant »

luffy

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Re: Challenge: Interesting Question (Part 2)
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2011, 09:41:14 pm »
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I'm trying to think of a counter-example to the perpendicular line thing, but it seems pretty good at the moment (assuming the functions are well-behaved). You can find the equation of the normal as a function of x1, and the maxima/minima will occur when this normal is perpendicular to the gradient of the other line at the point of intersection.

And the two methods I used both involve partial derivatives, which are not part of specialist. I shall leave them for later. :)

Because you mentioned partial derivatives, I looked them up and they have spiked my interest xD.

You are doing exactly as I was doing - I just don't understand why it will ALWAYS be a perpendicular line to one of the curves... If it is always the case, is there a mathematical method of proving it?

Any help on this issue would be splendid.

EDIT: I just saw Thushan's post, and the whole idea of perpendicular lines is beginning to make more sense to me - Thanks Thushan, Brightsky and Mao -> You're all legends :D

Partial differentiation, as you would have worked it out, is just differentiating against one variable while holding another variable constant. The method is simple, though there are quite a bit of theory in multivariable about it (i.e. partial derivative is different to total derivative/material derivative, etc). In our case, we make the assumption that our two variables are both independent variables, thus partial differentiation is justified.

The square of the distance function be defined as

We require a minimum or maximum distance, thus we find:



Solving the above would give us x1 and x2, the x coordinates of points on the two functions that give minimum/maximum distance.

We postulate that the line joining these two points must be orthogonal to both lines. The gradient of this line is , thus it must satisfy:



These two equations are exactly the same as the partial differentiation method. Thus the postulate above is proven to be true.



One algorithm for solving using the 'orthogonal to both graphs' is:

1. Find the normal of at any , you should arrive at

2. Find the intersection of this normal to , that is, solve for in terms of

3. Find such that , that is, substitute the expression for from above into to express the LHS in terms of , then solve the equation for

Mao - I thought I would just reiterate - You're a legend :D

After a lot of thought and research into partial derivatives, I understand your explanation. Thanks a lot!