English Language essay submission and marking

[dannynips]

And if you have read it could you also try to predict roughly what score you think it is deserving of out of 15. Thanks!

[aqple]

Thanks very much for your feedback! I have gone down that line with the exception of ethonolects.

A few quick qns:

1. Does Aus English refer to standard aboriginal and ethnolects?
2. Does stimulus material B) when talking about accents is that referring to broad general cultivated or is it meaning australian , aboriginal ethonlects ? Or both?

Not a problem
Australian English includes all varieties of it.
The stimulus material B is referring to all accents of Australia, so broad, cultivated, ethnic accents, etc.

Australian English is a major variety of English used across Australia, containing many distinct linguistic and phonological because you have to make reference to the way AE 'sounds' features making it look and sound unique and different different and unique have the same meaning to other Englishes. It serves as a fundamental token of the Australian national identity and is forever adapting to reflect this ever-changing Australian identity try not to repeat phrases in the same sentence, instead, replace with 'notion'. The Australian accent is arguably our most salient feature which has undergone great change and is an important bearer of history in regards to our identity. Australia’s use of slang and taboo language contribute to manifesting the national identity, however in the modern age, America’s dominance in the entertainment industry has had a large influence on Australian English. Language use in Australia has adapted and currently is indubitably an important medium to express the modern Australian identity. Good intro. You have made clear links to the notion of identity.

The Australian English venacular is reflective of reflects the history of the nation and the values that are instilled in Australians. I would make this topic sentence less broad because this paragraph is not simply about AE but the lexical and phonological aspects of it. The abstract noun ‘mateship’ or the common noun ‘larrikin’ are examples of distinctly Australian lexis which reflect the self-perception of the Australian identity as they value comradery (mateship) and actually endorse boisterousness and cheekiness within a good hearted person (the modern idea of a larrikin). Instead of adopting the rhotic emphasis on /r/ that Americans are characterised by, Australians have continued to pronounce words like butter as /bʌtə/ showing the Australian perception of being laid back and easy going This is known as the phonological process of 'flapping'.  The broad Australian accent is internationally recognised as being iconically Australian, despite it only being spoken by the minority today. The accent veered up the continuum towards the more prestigious cultivated accent late 19th century as an inflow of British immigrants arrived and the Received Pronunciation became prominent. Then During the First World War to , in order to distinguish Australians from the British, the accent moved away from cultivated towards broad again which played a significant part in developing the Australian identity. The general accent is the middle ground and is the most popular accent spoken nowadays in Australia by roughly 80 per cent of the population. This accent is our “bearer of history” you should make reference to who said this and maintains our identity by still sounding distinctly Australian but avoids the negative stigma often associated with the broad accent. There needs to be more link to the essay question here. You could discuss how there has been a shift away from the broad and cultivated accent with the majority of Australians speaking with a general accent, yet the accent is still undeniably Australian. How is this the case and what features gives us our identity?

A widely recognised feature of Australian English is its informality and colloquial creativity topic sentence unclear, you need to refer back to the identity aspect of the essay question. Australians take pride and show morphological innovation in their use of diminutives such as ‘servo’ for service station and the more taboo word formations such as ‘shit-faced’ for drunk. Dave Hughes demonstrated this bold sense of humour in last year’s Melbourne Comedy Festival when he employed the innovative expletive ‘whoop-de-fucking-do’. Our fondness for such colloquial usage transcends our counterparts in British and American English, which demonstrates the Australian identity and how easy-going and laid-back they are in the way they see humour from irreverent language.  One only has to look at the plethora of idioms used in Australian English to sense our colloquial and humorous personalities. At a recent funeral I attended, the idiomatic expression “even though he’s carked it, he’s still here with us,” was used, showing that even in the most formal and sincere of contexts this characteristic of Australian English is present and playful colloquial language is therefore  an innate characteristic of our identity. Good examples here. I'm not sure about giving a personal anecdote though, maybe you could look at the way politicians use colloquial language in speeches.

Hope this is helpful you're on the right track. As I stated, there needs to be stronger links to the essay question. So for every point you make, you have to consistently link it back to the how that certain lexical or phonological feature reflects our identity as a nation. From this alone, I'd predict around 10/15 but it's probably safer to ask your teacher because to be honest I don't really know

[dannynips]

. From this alone, I'd predict around 10/15 but it's probably safer to ask your teacher because to be honest I don't really know

Thanks I'll go through it all in a minute but I was wondering in your first point about saying linguistic and phonological features.... Does linguistics cover phonology ?

[aqple]

Thanks I'll go through it all in a minute but I was wondering in your first point about saying linguistic and phonological features.... Does linguistics cover phonology ?

Oops I must have read that wrong. Yes linguistics does cover phonology, my bad!

[dannynips]

Oops I must have read that wrong. Yes linguistics does cover phonology, my bad!

No worries. Thanks a heap for all your help! I will upload my edited and full essay shortly and if you could go through it again for me I would be so grateful!!

Really appreciate your help and feedback

[dannynips]

okay just finished writing it so any more feedback would be great...

i wondered if it was necessary to talk about ethnolects in this essay - maybe i should have considering it is easy to talk about stimulus b) and also the Australian egalitarian identity.. oh well what do you think?

and in regards to using 'I' and that personal experience i could replace it with an event in parliament such as bill shorten being called 'electricity bill' a pun - but i prefer the funeral one.. maybe its a bit risky but if you look in the English language 2013 english language examiners report on page 9 you will see it was done acceptably i think.

in regards to the phonological flapping vs rhotic /r/ im a little confused becuase wikipedia states that that particular use of the word butter is the non rhotic r (if im on the page discussing the rhotic r) but then if i look at flapping it also states it there. (is it both)
i think ill just leave it how i had it anyway.

in regards to more linking to the orignial question in my first paragraph i wasnt sure exactly what more to say because it is already quite a long paragraph also

im especially keen on feedback for my last paragraph and conclusion now obviously...

below is my full essay:

What does Australian English look and sound like today, and how does it reflect our identity as a nation?

Australian English is a major variety of English used across Australia, containing many distinct linguistic features making it look and sound unique to other Englishes. It serves as a fundamental token of the Australian national identity and is forever adapting to reflect this ever-changing notion. The Australian accent is arguably our most salient feature which has undergone great change and is an important bearer of history in regards to our identity. Australia’s use of slang and taboo language contribute to manifesting the national identity, however in the modern age, America’s dominance in the entertainment industry has had a large influence on Australian English. Language use in Australia has adapted and currently is indubitably an important medium to express the modern Australian identity.

The Australian English vernacular reflects the history of the nation and the values that are instilled in Australians. The abstract noun ‘mateship’ or the common noun ‘larrikin’ are examples of distinctly Australian lexis which reflect the self-perception of the Australian identity as they value comradery (mateship) and actually endorse boisterousness and cheekiness within a good hearted person (the modern idea of a larrikin). Instead of adopting the rhotic emphasis on /r/ that Americans are characterised by, Australians have continued to pronounce words like butter as /bʌtə/ showing the Australian perception of being laid back and easy going and unwilling to conform to American pronunciation.  The broad Australian accent is internationally recognised as being iconically Australian, despite it only being spoken by the minority today. The accent veered up the continuum towards the more prestigious cultivated accent late 19th century as an inflow of British immigrants arrived and the Received Pronunciation became prominent. Then during the First World War, in order to distinguish Australians from the British the accent moved away from cultivated towards broad again which played a significant part in developing the Australian identity. The general accent is the middle ground and is the most popular accent spoken nowadays in Australia by roughly 80 per cent of the population. This accent is as Bruce Moore describes it, our “bearer of history” and maintains our identity by still sounding undeniably Australian but avoids the negative stigma often associated with the broad accent.

An underlying aspect of Australian English is the inventive and spontaneous use of colloquial language particularly in regards to swearing allowing us to invoke humour and reflect our values of informality and mateship. Australians take pride and show morphological innovation in their use of diminutives such as ‘servo’ for service station and the more taboo word formations such as ‘shit-faced’ for drunk. Dave Hughes demonstrated this bold sense of humour in last year’s Melbourne Comedy Festival when he employed the innovative expletive ‘whoop-de-fucking-do’. Our fondness for such colloquial usage transcends our counterparts in British and American English, which demonstrates the Australian identity and how easy-going and laid-back we are in the way we see humour from irreverent language.  One only has to look at the plethora of idioms used in Australian English to sense our colloquial and humorous personalities. At a recent funeral I attended, the idiomatic expression “even though he’s carked it, he’s still here with us,” was used, showing that even in the most formal and sincere of contexts this characteristic of Australian English is present and playful colloquial language is therefore  an innate characteristic of our identity.

International influences such as the juggernaut of American culture are affecting modern Australian English and modifying the national identity, in particular with younger generations. America’s dominance and omnipresence in the entertainment industry has led to various Americanisms entering the Australian vernacular. Morphological changes include the spelling of inflections from –ise to –ize in words such as ‘realise’ and ‘authorise’. A powerful example of the extent of their influence is the spelling of a major Australian political party, the ‘Labor Party’ who opted to change the spelling of their party name from the current and at the time Australian spelling of ‘Labour’ to ‘Labor’. Many prescriptive commentators condemn the use of such Americanisms but Australians have a propensity to using Americanisms where they see fit as stated by Pam Peters, a professor of linguistics at Macquarie University when she said “people see them as invasions but Australians have imported them, adopted them and adapted them. It’s not exactly colonialism.” Lexical borrowings such as the concrete nouns ‘dude’ and ‘buddy’ are now as commonplace in the Australian vernacular as the iconic Australian noun ‘mate’. The American term ‘ketchup’ frequently replaces ‘sauce’ and has contributed to the demise of the Australian rhyming slang term ‘dead horse’. These Americanisms are often adopted by younger generations to distinguish themselves from older generations. They demonstrate the nature of language change in Australia and display that the national identity is constantly evolving and reflecting these changes to become more global now than ever.

Australian English contains its own distinct look and sound. Its unique look regarding lexis, taboo language, idioms and Americanisms reflect the relaxed, humorous and adaptive nature of the Australian identity. The iconic sound of the Australian accent holds the essence of Australian history and is pivotal in reflecting the true Australian national identity.

[dannynips]

please if you want to read my essay any thoughts on a possible mark out of 15 would be appreciated:

What does Australian English look and sound like today, and how does it reflect our identity as a nation?
(Stimulus should be attached)


Australian English is a major variety of English used across Australia, containing many distinct linguistic features making it look and sound unique to other Englishes. It serves as a fundamental token of the Australian national identity and is forever adapting to reflect this ever-changing notion. The Australian accent is arguably our most salient feature which has undergone great change and is an important bearer of history in regards to our identity. Australia’s use of slang and taboo language contribute to manifesting the national identity, however in the modern age, America’s dominance in the entertainment industry has had a large influence on Australian English. Language use in Australia has adapted and currently is indubitably an important medium to express the modern Australian identity.

The Australian English vernacular reflects the history of the nation and the values that are instilled in Australians. The abstract noun ‘mateship’ or the common noun ‘larrikin’ are examples of distinctly Australian lexis which reflect the self-perception of the Australian identity as they value comradery (mateship) and actually endorse boisterousness and cheekiness within a good hearted person (the modern idea of a larrikin). Instead of adopting the rhotic emphasis on /r/ that Americans are characterised by, Australians have continued to pronounce words like butter as /bʌtə/ showing the Australian perception of being laid back and easy going and unwilling to conform to American pronunciation.  The broad Australian accent is internationally recognised as being iconically Australian, despite it only being spoken by the minority today. The accent veered up the continuum towards the more prestigious cultivated accent late 19th century as an inflow of British immigrants arrived and the Received Pronunciation became prominent. Then during the First World War, in order to distinguish Australians from the British the accent moved away from cultivated towards broad again which played a significant part in developing the Australian identity. The general accent is the middle ground and is the most popular accent spoken nowadays in Australia by roughly 80 per cent of the population. This accent is as Bruce Moore describes it, our “bearer of history” and maintains our identity by still sounding undeniably Australian but avoids the negative stigma often associated with the broad accent.

An underlying aspect of Australian English is the inventive and spontaneous use of colloquial language particularly in regards to swearing allowing us to invoke humour and reflect our values of informality and mateship. Australians take pride and show morphological innovation in their use of diminutives such as ‘servo’ for service station and the more taboo word formations such as ‘shit-faced’ for drunk. Dave Hughes demonstrated this bold sense of humour in last year’s Melbourne Comedy Festival when he employed the innovative expletive ‘whoop-de-fucking-do’. Our fondness for such colloquial usage transcends our counterparts in British and American English, which demonstrates the Australian identity and how easy-going and laid-back we are in the way we see humour from irreverent language.  One only has to look at the plethora of idioms used in Australian English to sense our colloquial and humorous personalities. At a recent funeral I attended, the idiomatic expression “even though he’s carked it, he’s still here with us,” was used, showing that even in the most formal and sincere of contexts this characteristic of Australian English is present and playful colloquial language is therefore  an innate characteristic of our identity.

International influences such as the juggernaut of American culture are affecting modern Australian English and modifying the national identity, in particular with younger generations. America’s dominance and omnipresence in the entertainment industry has led to various Americanisms entering the Australian vernacular. Morphological changes include the spelling of inflections from –ise to –ize in words such as ‘realise’ and ‘authorise’. A powerful example of the extent of their influence is the spelling of a major Australian political party, the ‘Labor Party’ who opted to change the spelling of their party name from the current and at the time Australian spelling of ‘Labour’ to ‘Labor’. Many prescriptive commentators condemn the use of such Americanisms but Australians have a propensity to using Americanisms where they see fit as stated by Pam Peters, a professor of linguistics at Macquarie University when she said “people see them as invasions but Australians have imported them, adopted them and adapted them. It’s not exactly colonialism.” Lexical borrowings such as the concrete nouns ‘dude’ and ‘buddy’ are now as commonplace in the Australian vernacular as the iconic Australian noun ‘mate’. The American term ‘ketchup’ frequently replaces ‘sauce’ and has contributed to the demise of the Australian rhyming slang term ‘dead horse’. These Americanisms are often adopted by younger generations to distinguish themselves from older generations. They demonstrate the nature of language change in Australia and display that the national identity is constantly evolving and reflecting these changes to become more global now than ever.

Australian English contains its own distinct look and sound. Its unique look regarding lexis, taboo language, idioms and Americanisms reflect the relaxed, humorous and adaptive nature of the Australian identity. The iconic sound of the Australian accent holds the essence of Australian history and is pivotal in reflecting the true Australian national identity.

[dannynips]

Please help critique and mark my essay. any feedback will be appreciated and be as honest and harsh as you want. Please provide what you think it would be marked out of 15 also. Thanks

Spoiler

What does Australian English look and sound like today, and how does it reflect our identity as nation?

Australian English is a major variety of English used across Australia, containing many distinct linguistic features making it look and sound unique to other Englishes. It serves as a fundamental token of the Australian national identity and is forever adapting to reflect this ever-changing notion. The Australian accent is arguably our most salient feature which has undergone great change and is an important bearer of history in regards to our identity. Australia’s use of slang and taboo language contribute to manifesting the national identity, however in the modern age, America’s dominance in the entertainment industry has had a large influence on Australian English. Language use in Australia has adapted and currently is indubitably an important medium to express the modern Australian identity.

The Australian English vernacular reflects the history of the nation and the values that are instilled in Australians. The abstract noun ‘mateship’ or the common noun ‘larrikin’ are examples of distinctly Australian lexis which reflect the self-perception of the Australian identity as they value comradery (mateship) and actually endorse boisterousness and cheekiness within a good hearted person (the modern idea of a larrikin). Instead of adopting the rhotic emphasis on /r/ that Americans are characterised by, Australians have continued to pronounce words like butter as /bʌtə/ showing the Australian perception of being laid back and easy going and unwilling to conform to American pronunciation.  The broad Australian accent is internationally recognised as being iconically Australian, despite it only being spoken by the minority today. The accent veered up the continuum towards the more prestigious cultivated accent late 19th century as an inflow of British immigrants arrived and the Received Pronunciation became prominent. Then during the First World War, in order to distinguish Australians from the British the accent moved away from cultivated towards broad again which played a significant part in developing the Australian identity. The general accent is the middle ground and is the most popular accent spoken nowadays in Australia by roughly 80 per cent of the population. This accent is as Bruce Moore describes it, our “bearer of history” and maintains our identity by still sounding undeniably Australian but avoids the negative stigma often associated with the broad accent.

An underlying aspect of Australian English is the inventive and spontaneous use of colloquial language particularly in regards to swearing allowing us to invoke humour and reflect our values of informality and mateship. Australians take pride and show morphological innovation in their use of diminutives such as ‘servo’ for service station and the more taboo word formations such as ‘shit-faced’ for drunk. Dave Hughes demonstrated this bold sense of humour in last year’s Melbourne Comedy Festival when he employed the innovative expletive ‘whoop-de-fucking-do’. Our fondness for such colloquial usage transcends our counterparts in British and American English, which demonstrates the Australian identity and how easy-going and laid-back we are in the way we see humour from irreverent language.  One only has to look at the plethora of idioms used in Australian English to sense our colloquial and humorous personalities. At a recent funeral I attended, the idiomatic expression “even though he’s carked it, he’s still here with us,” was used, showing that even in the most formal and sincere of contexts this characteristic of Australian English is present and playful colloquial language is therefore  an innate characteristic of our identity.

International influences such as the juggernaut of American culture are affecting modern Australian English and modifying the national identity, in particular with younger generations. America’s dominance and omnipresence in the entertainment industry has led to various Americanisms entering the Australian vernacular. Morphological changes include the spelling of inflections from –ise to –ize in words such as ‘realise’ and ‘authorise’. A powerful example of the extent of their influence is the spelling of a major Australian political party, the ‘Labor Party’ who opted to change the spelling of their party name from the current and at the time Australian spelling of ‘Labour’ to ‘Labor’. Many prescriptive commentators condemn the use of such Americanisms but Australians have a propensity to using Americanisms where they see fit as stated by Pam Peters, a professor of linguistics at Macquarie University when she said “people see them as invasions but Australians have imported them, adopted them and adapted them. It’s not exactly colonialism.” Lexical borrowings such as the concrete nouns ‘dude’ and ‘buddy’ are now as commonplace in the Australian vernacular as the iconic Australian noun ‘mate’. The American term ‘ketchup’ frequently replaces ‘sauce’ and has contributed to the demise of the Australian rhyming slang term ‘dead horse’. These Americanisms are often adopted by younger generations to distinguish themselves from older generations. They demonstrate the nature of language change in Australia and display that the national identity is constantly evolving and reflecting these changes to become more global now than ever.

Australian English contains its own distinct look and sound. Its unique look regarding lexis, taboo language, idioms and Americanisms reflect the relaxed, humorous and adaptive nature of the Australian identity. The iconic sound of the Australian accent holds the essence of Australian history and is pivotal in reflecting the true Australian national identity.

[dannynips]

Oops I must have read that wrong. Yes linguistics does cover phonology, my bad!

just quoting you here to make user you get notified

[AngelWings]

Unfortunately I don't have much time up my sleeve now, but upon first glance, it doesn't look like you used the stimulus material much. I do like some of your examples, though.

[dannynips]

Unfortunately I don't have much time up my sleeve now, but upon first glance, it doesn't look like you used the stimulus material much. I do like some of your examples, though.

Thanks for your feedback. I only used "bearer of history" that's all.

I know you must refer to the stimulus but to score highly is it a requirement to really incorporate the stimulus into your essay?

[psyxwar]

please if you want to read my essay any thoughts on a possible mark out of 15 would be appreciated:

What does Australian English look and sound like today, and how does it reflect our identity as a nation?
(Stimulus should be attached)


Australian English is a major variety of English used across Australia, containing many distinct linguistic features making it look and sound unique to other Englishes. It serves as a fundamental token of the Australian national identity and is forever adapting to reflect this ever-changing notion. The Australian accent is arguably our most salient feature which has undergone great change and is an important bearer of history in regards to our identity. Australia’s use of slang and taboo language contribute to manifesting the national identity, however in the modern age, America’s dominance in the entertainment industry has had a large influence on Australian English. Language use in Australia has adapted and currently is indubitably an important medium to express the modern Australian identity.

The Australian English vernacular reflects the history of the nation and the values that are instilled in Australians. The abstract noun ‘mateship’ or the common noun ‘larrikin’ are examples of distinctly Australian lexis which reflect the self-perception of the Australian identity as they value comradery (mateship) and actually endorse boisterousness and cheekiness within a good hearted person (the modern idea of a larrikin).You can talk about this a lot more. How is the notion of 'mateship' ingrained in Australian culture? What is the significance of the vocative 'mate' in Aus society? Instead of adopting the rhotic emphasis on /r/ that Americans are characterised by, Australians have continued to pronounce words like butter as /bʌtə/showing the Australian perception of being laid back and easy going and unwilling to conform to American pronunciation.  Okay really not convinced by this 'unwillingness to conform to American pronunciation', you're making non-rhoticity sound like a conscious divergence away from American pronounciation when infact it's just due to British influences The broad Australian accent is internationally recognised as being iconically Australian, despite it only being spoken by the minority today. The accent veered up the continuum towards the more prestigious cultivated accent late 19th century as an inflow of British immigrants arrived and the Received Pronunciation became prominent. Then during the First World War, in order to distinguish Australians from the British the accent moved away from cultivated towards broad again which played a significant part in developing the Australian identity. The general accent is the middle ground and is the most popular accent spoken nowadays in Australia by roughly 80 per cent of the population. This accent is as Bruce Moore describes it, our “bearer of history” and maintains our identity by still sounding undeniably Australian but avoids the negative stigma often associated with the broad accent.

An underlying aspect of Australian English is the inventive and spontaneous use of colloquial language particularly in regards to swearing allowing us to invoke humour and reflect our values of informality and mateship. Australians take pride and show morphological innovation in their use of diminutives such as ‘servo’ for service station and the more taboo word formations such as ‘shit-faced’ for drunk. Dave Hughes demonstrated this bold sense of humour in last year’s Melbourne Comedy Festival when he employed the innovative expletive ‘whoop-de-fucking-do’. Our fondness for such colloquial usage transcends our counterparts in British and American English, which demonstrates the Australian identity and how easy-going and laid-back we are in the way we see humour from irreverent language.  One only has to look at the plethora of idioms used in Australian English to sense our colloquial and humorous personalities. At a recent funeral I attended Not a fan of anecdotes personally, nor do I really endorse the first person in essays, but I'm not sure how VCAA feels about this; I'd steer clear of 'I' though, the idiomatic expression “even though he’s carked it, he’s still here with us,” was used, showing that even in the most formal and sincere of contexts this characteristic of Australian English is present and playful colloquial language is therefore  an innate characteristic of our identity.

International influences such as the juggernaut of American culture are affecting modern Australian English and modifying the national identity, in particular with younger generations. America’s dominance and omnipresence in the entertainment industry has led to various Americanisms entering the Australian vernacular. Morphological changes include the spelling of inflections from –ise to –ize in words such as ‘realise’ and ‘authorise’. A powerful example of the extent of their influence is the spelling of a major Australian political party, the ‘Labor Party’ who opted to change the spelling of their party name from the current and at the time Australian spelling of ‘Labour’ to ‘Labor’. Many prescriptive commentators condemn the use of such Americanisms but Australians have a propensity to using Americanisms where they see fit as stated by Pam Peters, a professor of linguistics at Macquarie University when she said “people see them as invasions but Australians have imported them, adopted them and adapted them. It’s not exactly colonialism.” Lexical borrowings such as the concrete nouns ‘dude’ and ‘buddy’ are now as commonplace in the Australian vernacular as the iconic Australian noun ‘mate’. The American term ‘ketchup’ frequently replaces ‘sauce’ and has contributed to the demise of the Australian rhyming slang term ‘dead horse’. Has it? Seems a bit farfetched but mehThese Americanisms are often adopted by younger generations to distinguish themselves from older generations. They demonstrate the nature of language change in Australia and display that the national identity is constantly evolving and reflecting these changes to become more global now than ever. Probably could've elaborated and talked about globalisation and the sociopolitical hegemony of the US in more detail here

Australian English contains its own distinct look and sound. Its unique look regarding lexis, taboo language, idioms and Americanisms reflect the relaxed, humorous and adaptive nature of the Australian identity. The iconic sound of the Australian accent holds the essence of Australian history and is pivotal in reflecting the true Australian national identity.

Pretty good essay, but I think you might want to use some more contemporary examples.

[dannynips]

Thanks for your feedback. I actually got rid of the USA paragraph and used ethnolects instead think it fits better

Thanks so much again for your feedback. I'm just wondering out of 15 what you would rate this?

[dannynips]

Pretty good essay, but I think you might want to use some more contemporary examples.

Just quoting you so I get notified.

Roughly what do you think this deserves out of 15?

[psyxwar]

Just quoting you so I get notified.

Roughly what do you think this deserves out of 15?

not sure lol, I'm doing EL this year too so yeah