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April 28, 2024, 08:06:18 am

Author Topic: What price minimum wage?  (Read 13357 times)  Share 

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brendan

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Re: What price minimum wage?
« Reply #150 on: December 30, 2007, 01:58:19 pm »
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It is not coercion, that's an exaggerated label. If enough people really hated taxes, either one of the two major parties would adjust their policies in the hope of being elected, or a new political party would rise to power. Part of democracy is that the majority does guide most of the decision-making that goes on. Is it ideal? Probably not, but I think that we must acknowledge that we're essentially a society. Everything we do in life impacts on someone else in some way, sometimes to the extent that free will can't overcome the choices of others. It pays to recognise this, in politics as well as life.

It is coercion, by definition taxes are coercive. If they weren't coercive, and they were voluntary then they wouldn't be called taxes, it would just be called donations. You just do not want to acknowledge it because it is inconvenient to your argument.

If enough people really hated taxes, either one of the two major parties would adjust their policies in the hope of being elected, or a new political party would rise to power.
If people really wanted to pay taxes, then give them a choice, and we will see who pays. Secondly you don't take into account the imperfections of the political market. There are two major parties, and their policies are bundled. You cannot pick and choice the economic policies of Liberal and the social policies of Labor. It's a take-it-or-leave it bundle. Second, you also didn't take into account the fact that in political market, it is rational for individuals to be ignorant of the policies due to the significant information costs and the small chance that their one vote will make a difference.

Part of democracy is that the majority does guide most of the decision-making that goes on. Is it ideal? Probably not, but I think that we must acknowledge that we're essentially a society.

How does acknowledging that we are "society" justify the forced and involuntary confiscation of the fruits of an individual’s labour using the coercive powers of government? Society is simply a collection of individuals. I will acknowledge that. But it doesn't follow from that positive statement that therefore the government should coercively confiscate of the fruits of an individual’s labour. Your argument doesn't logically follow.

The hard evidence shows that a minimum wage law reduces the number of jobs available.
The "hard evidence" says nothing of the sort! There may well be a correlation between enstating the minimum wage and a rise in unemployemnt, I'm not going to dispute that.

No, the study found disemployment effects.

As I alluded to earlier, statistics do not show the whole picture. If the amount of people employed stays the same but the amount of people joining the workforce rises, there is going to be an artifical rise in the unemployment rate also. This can be seen currently - the unemployemnt rate has moved from 4.2% to 4.3%, but more people are employed now than what they were a year ago. This is because the participation rate has risen.

So what? How does that even address the findings of the 28 credible studies that have found negative employment effects associated with a minimum wage. You are just saying how the unemployment rate can increase. How does that show a positive employment effect associated with minimum wages?

And don't you think that instilling the minimum wage could potentially attract more workers to the workforce if it means that they can make a living from doing so? And so that they don't have to value their worth as a worker to be below the poverty line? Admittedly, the minimum wage can have a number of effects, just like almost everything in real-world economics - but my suggestion is just as valid as yours.

If you suggestion as just as valid then why did you feel the need to point it out? It's validity will do its own work. Secondly, you haven't provided any credible or objective evidence to support your claims that a minimum wage law will have a positive employment effect. David Neumark and William Wasche's paper discussing over 90 recent studies on the effect of minimum wages on employment, including 4 studies from Australia found that:
Quote from: David Neumark and William Wasche
very few - if any - studies that provide convincing evidence of positive employment effects of minimum wages, especially from those studies that focus on the broader groups (rather than a narrow industry) for which the competitive model predicts disemployment effects.

And also, while the research is apparently there, we have no reason to think that no minimum wage is best.

That's conveniently shifting the onus of proof. What evidence is there to support the contention that a minimum wage law is best?

I'm not convinced that it would be for the best. 
You do not need to be convinced either.

Theoretically, your agument is viable, but there's no real world examples to back it up.
That's intellectual dishonesty. My argument isn't simply theoritical, I have provided again and again empirical evidence to counter the claim that a minimum wage law benefits society. The most substantial piece of research being David Neumark and William Wasche's paper discussing over 90 recent studies on the effect of minimum wages on employment, including 4 studies from Australia.

I just keep thinking back to Britain during the Industrial Revolution. What's to say that society won't go back there?
That's an hyperbole. What credible evidence do you have to support the claim that Australia will go back to being like "Britain during the Industrial Revolution" if the minimum wage laws were abolished?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 02:20:40 pm by brendan »

Eriny

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Re: What price minimum wage?
« Reply #151 on: December 30, 2007, 07:57:18 pm »
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I think the fact that we're a society means more than what you credit it, but I understand that's you come from a different ideology than me. Also, I don't think I'm alarmist enough to suggest that if there was no minimum wage, Australia would definitely end up like the Industrial Revolution days, but it could well be a possibility unless we watched it.

I've already said what I think really, so I'm not going to bore you with the same arguments re-worded time after time.

I'm happy to agree to disagree though :)

brendan

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Re: What price minimum wage?
« Reply #152 on: December 30, 2007, 08:18:31 pm »
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I think the fact that we're a society means more than what you credit it,

No, I acknowledged that we are a society (collection of individuals), but how does it follow from that fact, your policy proposal? It is a giant leap in logic. You jumped from a positive (what is) factual statement to a normative (what ought to be) statement, which defies logic and common sense.  It's not about ideology (collection of ideas) but about logic, sound arguments and common sense.

Collin Li

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Re: What price minimum wage?
« Reply #153 on: December 30, 2007, 10:53:18 pm »
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If you think about it emotionally, your policy of redistribution essentially subdues potential thieves. This is practically appeasement: "we will pay you so that you don't have an incentive to steal" - that is like sacrificing liberties at home to defend our liberties in a War on Terror :P (*ahem* Patriot Act). A stronger enforcement of the law should be used instead. Both options will cost money, so empirical evidence may be required. However, the option that respects individual liberty the most is to enforce the law more strongly (or effectively).
I think it's more "We pay you so that you can buy food, be healthy, think more clearly, get educated, and lead a life where you won't feel the need to resort to desperate acts". We'll ultimately have to pay for it anyway, the police force is a public good, jails might be considered to be a public good. Personally, I'd prefer to pay them before they get to prison. Also, the money would probably be used for education, which has many positive externalities to the whole economy/society. It helps all of us.

That's only one side of the story. There are disincentives created by redistribution, because of the impracticability of distributing income to where it will reduce crime the most. A lot of the money will end up in the hands of people who would not have committed crimes anyway, so the end benefit becomes very thinned out. Instead, we end up with a system where people have the means to live without working. This is the disincentive that hurts the workers (who get a cut of their benefits removed) and also makes the poorer more averse from finding a job (because they don't need to!).

The economic benefits are ambiguous. In such a case, I prefer to respect individual liberties, rather than entrust the optimisation to a few wise men in power.

Collin Li

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Re: What price minimum wage?
« Reply #154 on: January 15, 2008, 06:40:01 pm »
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There is an unintended benefit (to the poor) that happens from the minimum wage:

Employers illegally employ workers that work under the minimum wage. This is under the table and will not be reported on tax, and hence the unskilled (and usually poor) worker benefits from not having to pay tax on his earnings.

costargh

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Re: What price minimum wage?
« Reply #155 on: January 15, 2008, 06:47:18 pm »
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Hahah thats a very good point Coblin haha i love it

brendan

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Re: What price minimum wage?
« Reply #156 on: June 16, 2008, 10:15:49 pm »
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Greg Mankiw is a professor of economics at Harvard University
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/06/sperling-on-minimum-wage.html

TrueLight

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Re: What price minimum wage?
« Reply #157 on: July 13, 2009, 09:53:39 pm »
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Peter Schiff on minimum wage policy. How its destroying jobs!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snDmfsPJWW4
http://www.campaignforliberty.com

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