Female traffic lights

[alchemy]

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/news-and-views/female-traffic-lights-in-melbourne-receive-mixed-response-20170307-gusjp7.html

thoughts on this?
i think it's a wonderful idea to advance the feminist cause 

also another hot topic: http://thenewdaily.com.au/entertainment/tv/2017/03/07/abc-international-womens-day-presenters/

edit: added another topic for discussion

[Joseph41]

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/news-and-views/female-traffic-lights-in-melbourne-receive-mixed-response-20170307-gusjp7.html

thoughts on this?
i think it's a wonderful idea to advance the feminist cause 

also another hot topic: http://thenewdaily.com.au/entertainment/tv/2017/03/07/abc-international-womens-day-presenters/

edit: added another topic for discussion

Why the eye roll?

[geminii]

Oh my god. Seriously? I'm a girl and I think this is ridiculous.

Firstly, when I read this, I realised that I had never thought of the traffic light person as male - just a person.
Secondly, these feminists could be doing something else which actually benefits society, like, I don't know, helping women and children overseas who are ACTUALLY disadvantaged.

This feminism thing has gone so out of control, I don't even consider myself a feminist anymore, because nowadays it's about women over men, not women = men. Once I went to a uni open day (Monash I think it was) and the guy telling us about an engineering club was like, "yeah, girls who have applied have literally written on their applications, 'I'm a girl so you have to choose me.'" This is appalling. How is that different to saying "I'm a man and so I should be chosen for the job"? Seriously this has completely flipped!

This whole feminist thing irks me. Arrrghhh! There's actually proof the wage gap is a myth, and that women in our society are now more advantaged than men - for example, women have a 2:1 likelihood compared to men in being accepted into STEM jobs. The focus should be on equality, not women superiority! International Women's Day is tomorrow, which heaps of people know about and my school is celebrating, but barely anyone knows about International Men's Day, on 19 November. Why don't we celebrate that too? After all, men and women should be equal right?

Haha sorry for the rant but this really annoys me!!

also another hot topic: http://thenewdaily.com.au/entertainment/tv/2017/03/07/abc-international-womens-day-presenters/

This too is ridiculous. I get that it's IWD but if we don't do the same for IMD (International Men's Day) then isn't that putting women over men? Also this is completely unnecessary, perhaps they should be assisting women in domestic violence situations or something rather than presenting news with only women because that won't directly help anyone.

[Joseph41]

^We probably don't celebrate International Men's Day in quite the same way due to literally thousands of years of male dominance.

[geminii]

^We probably don't celebrate International Men's Day in quite the same way due to literally thousands of years of male dominance.

But if feminism really is about equality, we should, shouldn't we?

Plus, in today's age:

There's actually proof the wage gap is a myth, and that women in our society are now more advantaged than men - for example, women have a 2:1 likelihood compared to men in being accepted into STEM jobs. The focus should be on equality, not women superiority!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#1868356c2596
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-don-t-make-less-money-than-men.html

[alchemy]

Why the eye roll?

like geminii said, they could be spending tax payers money on things which actually matter. Perhaps on raising awareness for domestic violence or the mentally ill, to name a few.

^We probably don't celebrate International Men's Day in quite the same way due to literally thousands of years of male dominance.

so a 1000 years of male dominance must equal a 1000 years of female dominance?

[elysepopplewell]

so a 1000 years of male dominance must equal a 1000 years of female dominance?

That's hardly what has been suggested.

[geminii]

like geminii said, they could be spending tax payers money on things which actually matter. Perhaps on raising awareness for domestic violence or the mentally ill, to name a few.

Exactly.

so a 1000 years of male dominance must equal a 1000 years of female dominance?

That's hardly what has been suggested.

^We probably don't celebrate International Men's Day in quite the same way due to literally thousands of years of male dominance.

Joseph41 said that due to thousands of years of male dominance, we don't celebrate IMD. But the thing is, just because they have been dominant for a long time, that does not justify the increasing dominance of women over men in our society. Women are becoming more priveleged than men and it's important to remember the men are in the equation too. So if feminism really is about equality, we should be giving the same treatment to both men and women, and therefore celebrate both IWD and IMD.

[elysepopplewell]

I'm keen to bounce off people for this one... give me your thoughts if you like

As geminii pointed out, the little person isn't a man, just a person. Perhaps true, but that's certainly not the way I've always seen it (and I love to challenge gender assumptions!). When I was younger I was told "wait for the little man to turn green." I crossed the road with my nephew a little while ago and I told him to wait for the little man to turn green, I'd made a gender assumption. I think a good thing to come out of this is to reconsider the way that we make assumptions about gender and the way we subconsciously privilege different genders for different ideas. Dad told me a story about a "male nurse" he talked with at the hospital, and being a man really had nothing to do with the story. At the end I asked why he pointed that out, and he said, "I just thought it was quite miraculous." No harm done, dad met a male nurse for the first time. Onya dad.

Beside the point, looking at the little figure on the traffic lights. If this figure is androgynous, why is it that a lot of people (because I'm certainly not the only one who was told to wait for the little man to turn green) see this figure as a man? What makes me bothered (so slightly - really not wasting much energy on it), is that in order to show this figure is a woman, she has to wear a dress? I wear pants, the little figure (in it's assumedly male form) could be me. I think the bigger issue that this leads to is the idea of the way we represent gender by appearance. For a long time I've had an issue with dress codes in schools that don't allow pant options for girls. This whole thing has got me thinking about the way we represent gender, and the way we make assumptions subconsciously.

It's been my goal this year to broaden my feminism to insist on including cis and non-cis women and men to the equation, and focusing more on intersectionality. Representation and subconscious gender bias play a huge role in this.

Also, "I'm a woman and I think this is stupid" holds absolutely no more weight than "I'm a man and I think this is stupid." Another thing I'm focusing on...not prefacing my gender before making a comment that would be equally valid if a man said it.


Just some thoughts...keen to know what y'all think

[elysepopplewell]

Exactly.

Joseph41 said that due to thousands of years of male dominance, we don't celebrate IMD. But the thing is, just because they have been dominant for a long time, that does not justify the increasing dominance of women over men in our society. Women are becoming more priveleged than men and it's important to remember the men are in the equation too. So if feminism really is about equality, we should be giving the same treatment to both men and women, and therefore celebrate both IWD and IMD.

Let me know how women are becoming more privileged than men?

[Quantum44]

It's basically a waste of money in my opinion. The change does not increase the quality of life of anyone apart from pleasing a few feminists but since it doesn't really negatively affect anyone, I don't see any reason that there should be any outrage.

Let me know how women are becoming more privileged than men?

A lot of companies have quotas for women so at least half of the accepted applicants must be female regardless of their suitability for the role. This favours women as in some jobs the majority of the applicants are male.

[elysepopplewell]

I think "1000 years of female dominance" is a statement that adds nothing to the conversation. That's not the intention of feminism. Feminism is one of the greatest liberation movements in history and International Womens Day is a celebration of such successes and a time to re-evaluate the millions of people yet to be liberated from gendered violence, discrimination, slavery, or limitations. That is literally the point of International Women's Day - there is no intention of women gaining dominance over men for 1000s of years to come.

It's basically a waste of money in my opinion. The change does not increase the quality of life of anyone apart from pleasing a few feminists but since it doesn't really negatively affect anyone, I don't see any reason that there should be any outrage.

A lot of companies have quotas for women so at least half of the accepted applicants must be female regardless of their suitability for the role. This favours women as in some jobs the majority of the applicants are male.

Right, because at 50/50, they are more privileged. Although I see there are complications with quotas, I think it's difficult to deny that subconscious (or sometimes conscious) gender bias occurs in hiring in work places.

[geminii]

Let me know how women are becoming more privileged than men?

Because, as I have stated before (and nobody seems to be replying to this point, I wonder why?):
- Women have a 2:1 likelihood OVER men of being accepted into STEM (science, technology, engineering, maths) jobs (http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.abstract)
- Men are more likely to get a longer sentence/jail time for the same crime as a woman (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html)
- When a man hits a woman, it's abuse. When a woman hits a man, it's self defence. (https://www.theodysseyonline.com/women-hitting-men)
- Whenever there is an emergency, it's always "women and children first". I understand the children, as they are younger and have barely lived life, but why put women before men? Are they not equal? Should they not be able to escape from a dangerous situation at the same rate as each other? Do the values of their lives not equal each other? Should they not be treated as equals? More women than men survived on the Titanic (THIRD class women were 41% MORE likely to survive than FIRST class men), simply because women's lives are thought to be somehow more valuable than men's. (http://www.anesi.com/titanic.htm)

[jamonwindeyer]

Joseph41 said that due to thousands of years of male dominance, we don't celebrate IMD. But the thing is, just because they have been dominant for a long time, that does not justify the increasing dominance of women over men in our society. Women are becoming more priveleged than men and it's important to remember the men are in the equation too. So if feminism really is about equality, we should be giving the same treatment to both men and women, and therefore celebrate both IWD and IMD.

I would personally argue that IWD is celebrated more 'enthusiastically' at the moment because it has come to represent the gender inequality issues that are still present in modern society. Has progress been made? Absolutely, I don't think anyone would argue that the gender gap hasn't closed somewhat, and you can show lots of evidence of that progress. But is it closed all the way? Absolutely not, and there is lots of evidence of that too

Because, as I have stated before (and nobody seems to be replying to this point, I wonder why?):
- Women have a 2:1 likelihood OVER men of being accepted into STEM (science, technology, engineering, maths) jobs (http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.abstract)
- Men are more likely to get a longer sentence/jail time for the same crime as a woman (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html)
- When a man hits a woman, it's abuse. When a woman hits a man, it's self defence. (https://www.theodysseyonline.com/women-hitting-men)
- Whenever there is an emergency, it's always "women and children first". I understand the children, as they are younger and have barely lived life, but why put women before men? Are they not equal? Should they not be able to escape from a dangerous situation at the same rate as each other? Do the values of their lives not equal each other? Should they not be treated as equals? More women than men survived on the Titanic (THIRD class women were 41% MORE likely to survive than FIRST class men), simply because women's lives are thought to be somehow more valuable than men's. (http://www.anesi.com/titanic.htm)

I will respond, to the first point specifically because I'm studying and have worked in the field

Having worked (and talked to people who work) in STEM workplaces, I think the sector remains imbalanced. In a company I worked at, of ~40 Engineers, only 3 were female, and all were hired in the last 5 years. No female senior staff. Similar stories from elsewhere. Yes, there are lots of opportunities out there for women to be incentivised to enter the STEM workforce (I don't speak from hiring rates, but instead scholarship opportunities), but if you have an imbalance in the workplace, that is what you do. In my opinion, you can't achieve equality in an imbalanced system without moving in the other direction. To give a really stupid analogy (possibly offensive to chefs) - If you have a sauce that's too sweet, you can't neutralise that by adding equal parts lemon and sugar - You need to add more lemon

Edit: Great to see some interesting debate guys - Encourage everyone to voice their bit, and remember to be respectful

[geminii]

I think "1000 years of female dominance" is a statement that adds nothing to the conversation. That's not the intention of feminism. Feminism is one of the greatest liberation movements in history and International Womens Day is a celebration of such successes and a time to re-evaluate the millions of people yet to be liberated from gendered violence, discrimination, slavery, or limitations. That is literally the point of International Women's Day - there is no intention of women gaining dominance over men for 1000s of years to come.

But that is what is happening now. Shouldn't we be celebrating IMD too, as men were the ones who:
- Edison: invented the lightbulb
- Bell: invented the phone
- Frankln: the lightning rod—a device which saved countless homes and lives from lightning induced fires, the glass armonica (a glass instrument, not to be confused with the metal harmonica), the Franklin stove, bifocal glasses, a carriage odometer
- Jerome Lemelson: automated warehouses, industrial robots, cordless telephones, fax machines, videocassette recorders, camcorders and the magnetic tape drive used in Sony’s Walkman tape players. Lemelson also filed patents in the fields of medical instrumentation, cancer detection and treatment, diamond coating technologies, and consumer electronics and television.

Shouldn't these achievements be celebrated too?

Having worked (and talked to people who work) in STEM workplaces, I think the sector remains imbalanced. In a company I worked at, of ~40 Engineers, only 3 were female, and all were hired in the last 5 years. No female senior staff. Similar stories from elsewhere. Yes, there are lots of opportunities out there for women to be incentivised to enter the STEM workforce (I don't speak from hiring rates, but instead scholarship opportunities), but if you have an imbalance in the workplace, that is what you do. In my opinion, you can't achieve equality in an imbalanced system without moving in the other direction. To give a really stupid analogy (possibly offensive to chefs) - If you have a sauce that's too sweet, you can't neutralise that by adding equal parts lemon and sugar - You need to add more lemon

Thanks for the answer jamon
The thing is, suddenly everyone is complaining that there are not enough females in STEM jobs - but then you don't hear anyone complaining that there aren't enough males in nursing, do you? What if more males than females are simply interested in STEM subjects and more females than males are simply interested in nursing?
I say, if we don't encourage more males to go into nursing, then the same should be done for girls and STEM subjects.

Off to bed now so if any more posts pop up I'll have to reply to them tomorrow.