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Author Topic: 'Dental glut' sparks call to cap university graduates  (Read 6187 times)  Share 

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pi

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Re: 'Dental glut' sparks call to cap university graduates
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2013, 04:05:42 pm »
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Probably GPs

slothpomba

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Re: 'Dental glut' sparks call to cap university graduates
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2013, 05:38:22 pm »
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Well, if there is a severe over supply, then what's the point of allowing everyone to become dentists when they can't work as one?

Why should we run a legal protection racket for the dentists?

This can apply to any industry. If there were a severe oversupply of bakers, would you put a cap on bakers? Just how much of the economy do you want the government to tinker with?

There are plenty of unemployed art history majors, politics majors, philosophy majors, etc. Not all these people are employed in their field of choice. In the interests of equity, we either have a cap for these people as well or no cap on dentists.

We don't see protection for builders or other blue collar workers either.

I don't agree that just leaving things as it is would be any good as you are aware of the situation with pharmacy.

The situation with pharmacy is what should be happening. It's the market correcting itself. Pharmacy used to be a much grander profession; they used to mix their own medicines. In times gone by, people often went to the pharmacy or apothecary because they simply could not afford to go to the doctor. Our healthcare system has radically changed. Medications are standardised and we have stringent laws on the quality and efficacy of them. Most of the time, in their professional practice, they are essentially dispensing robots.

If you willing go into a field that you know has falling salaries, falling prospects and oversupply, you are to blame. You have no right to whinge about jobs or your pay. You knew the state of the market and you took a plunge anyway.

If you want to play the card of not knowing, that is also a cop out. You should do your due diligence before going down a road like this. If you don't even look into it or do some decent research, it’s your own fault for being willfully ignorant.

Let’s not lie, it’s about protecting the dentists. It is about protecting their salaries and protecting themselves from competition, it's hindering the market. They want special treatment and they shouldn't have it.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 06:01:29 pm by kingpomba »

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Re: 'Dental glut' sparks call to cap university graduates
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2013, 05:44:52 pm »
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Why should we run a legal protection racket for the dentists?

This can apply to any industry. If there were a severe oversupply of bakers, would you put a cap on bakers? Just how much of the economy do you want the government to tinker with?

There are plenty of unemployed art history majors, politics majors, philosophy majors, etc. Not all these people are employed in their field of choice. In the interests of equity, we either have a cap for these people as well or no cap on dentists.

We don't see protection for builders or other blue collar workers either.

The situation with pharmacy is what should be happening. It's the market correcting itself. Pharmacy used to be a much grander profession; they used to mix their own medicines. In times gone by, people often went to the pharmacy or apothecary because they simply could not afford to go to the doctor. Our healthcare system has radically changed. Medications are standardised and we have stringent laws on the quality and efficacy of them. Most of the time, in their professional practice, they are essentially dispensing robots.

If you willing go into a field that you know has falling salaries, falling prospects and oversupply, you are to blame. You have no right to whinge about jobs or your pay. You knew the state of the market and you took a plunge anyway.

If you want to play the card of not knowing, that is also a cop out. You should do your due diligence before going down a road like this. If you don't even look into it or do some decent research, it’s your own fault for being willfully ignorant.

Let’s not lie, it’s about protecting the dentists. It is about protecting their salaries and protecting themselves from competition, it's hindering the market. They want special treatment and they shouldn't have it.

Ok, now I get your point. But nevertheless, that doesn't make it wrong for there to be something to done about it? i.e. worsen the situation?
Btw, I'm not sure are you directing that at me but it seems like you think I'm a pharmacy student? lol
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 05:59:23 pm by kingpomba »

Tomw2

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Re: 'Dental glut' sparks call to cap university graduates
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2013, 06:11:34 pm »
+2
I think having dental places completely uncapped and left completely to the universities discretion is a bit reckless, particularly when training requires use of public resources and infrastructure not covered completely by tuition contributions. However, IMO some competition would be good for the industry.

However, rather than the total number of dental grads, I'm really disturbed and pissed off at how little regulation the dental profession is subjected to in general. It's a primary health care profession of major importance and the government has arbitrarily avoided regulating it the way they have with medicine.

I see people mentioning LaTrobe as a dental school that specifically aims to put students into rural settings? Oh yeah, how? There's no guarantee at all and I strongly doubt appreciable numbers will head out into areas of need.

Some dental places should be bonded with a range of practise conditions.

Another factor: the influx of skilled overseas-trained dentists. Why on earth governments chose not to send a proportion of them into areas of need, I don't know. People seem keen to push new inexperienced dental grads into areas of need, but the whole time we've had an extra ~1500 full trained, experienced dentists coming into Australia. Stupid.

/end rant


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Re: 'Dental glut' sparks call to cap university graduates
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2013, 06:21:20 pm »
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^Do you think it's because the government is keen for some fast cash?
I heard the application procedure is not cheap, so they may want to make it more attractive for overseas dentists?

slothpomba

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Re: 'Dental glut' sparks call to cap university graduates
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2013, 07:00:06 pm »
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I think having dental places completely uncapped and left completely to the universities discretion is a bit reckless, particularly when training requires use of public resources and infrastructure not covered completely by tuition contributions. However, IMO some competition would be good for the industry.

Even if we left it completely uncapped, its not like there would be a massive flood. It would still be regulated by ATAR and ultimately, the choice of the university on how high their capacity to train is.

However, rather than the total number of dental grads, I'm really disturbed and pissed off at how little regulation the dental profession is subjected to in general. It's a primary health care profession of major importance and the government has arbitrarily avoided regulating it the way they have with medicine.

I'm interested in this, care to elaborate out a little more?


Some dental places should be bonded with a range of practise conditions.

Another factor: the influx of skilled overseas-trained dentists. Why on earth governments chose not to send a proportion of them into areas of need, I don't know. People seem keen to push new inexperienced dental grads into areas of need, but the whole time we've had an extra ~1500 full trained, experienced dentists coming into Australia. Stupid.

Good ideas.

Especially for foreign dentists, we have a lot of power over controlling visa's and things like that. We could probably quite easily boost up rural areas.

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Tomw2

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Re: 'Dental glut' sparks call to cap university graduates
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2013, 12:15:45 pm »
+1
Even if we left it completely uncapped, its not like there would be a massive flood. It would still be regulated by ATAR and ultimately,

Sorry, not sure I follow how the number of places would be regulated by ATAR (other than if minimum ATARs were set). Could you elaborate please?

Quote
the choice of the university on how high their capacity to train is.

I'm not so much worried about the number of graduates per se, more what even small increases in cohort size would mean for the learning experience and quality. My experiences lead me to believe financially, things are much tighter in universities than many realise.

Frankly, when it comes to top band clinical professions like medicine, dentistry, veterinary, I don't trust universities to make the decision in regards to capacity to train - there's a conflict of interest that contrary to popular opinion, is not offset by the institutions' concern for the quality of the student learning experience. Govts invariably diminish tertiary funding and universities invariably get creative to keep themselves afloat. This is a danger zone for professions that require complex clinical skills.

In dentistry in particular there has been a marked decline in the robustness of the curricula. Lab time and clinic time have gone from near-unlimited access in the early 90s, to a few strict hours. To save precious $$, institutions cut corners wherever possible and students frequently hear instructors and academic staff complaining about budget restraints (e.g. "no, you can only practice this denture registration once before you do it on a patient - sorry, no time/money").

The safety net for this phenomena is the "self-directed learning" movement combined with the high demand for the course. As a result of demand, those who get admission tend to be highly motivated and resilient and find ways to fill in the gaps. This hides the true deficits, but it's really more of a buffer effect  than safety net - eventually, if you degrade the curriculum enough problems will start occurring. They already do, to a limited extent.

In summary, in a situation where there are no restrictions on university places, I don't feel the institutions can be trusted to do the right thing by the professions - particularly when it is in their best interest to take in as many and fork out as little as possible on resources. If dentistry places are to be uncapped, then I think there should be rigorous, frequent, transparent auditing by the ADA or relevant independent authority as a condition.

Quote
I'm interested in this, care to elaborate out a little more?

'Arbitrarily avoided' was the wrong term. Governments avoid it because its a sh*t storm policy wise. The government has excluded dentistry from universal healthcare for reasons that I suspect have a lot to do with the fact that higher taxes are electoral poison.

As such, unlike medical practitioners, dentists don't have a medicare provider number. The medicare schedule is effectively what allows the governments to control and regulate the health system at all levels. The schedule is the instrument by which the government acts as a competitor in the 'health market'. Medical practitioners who do not partake in that system (ie choose not to bill and get paid by medicare and according to its schedule), effectively cannot practice - because why would anyone go to you as a patient.

This control allows governments to easily regulate how, when and where doctors practise and provides a strong market influence on how much they bill. No such control exists for dentistry, so it makes it difficult and legally tenuous to intervene. It also means the Federal-state divide is effectively absolute in public dentistry (dental hospitals and services being dominion of the states) - so simply bonding dental places to the public system is not enough, someone needs to pay them. Who? That's where the arguing begins. And never ends. And here we are, with over 300,000 people eligible for public dental services who cannot access it for over 12 months (in some cases 2.5x this).

Personally, at the very least I think there is no excuse for not providing comprehensive preventative and restorative dentistry to all under 18, means tested on a sliding scale of rebate. Cost-benefit wise, its a good place to start - although many citizens loathe the idea of any form of wealth distribution or social welfare that they don't directly benefit from themselves, health measures "for children" is harder to condemn outright.

Then there's the maldistribution of dentists. There's really only two financially viable options to make a real impact:

1. x% of dental school places are bonded via a contract with the Federal Government - possibly with some token "dental equipment grant" of $2-5k to sweeten the deal, and in return the first x no. of working years after graduation must be in an area of need.

2. Implement visa conditions on incoming overseas-trained foreign dentists, who are already experienced and who will - with forewarning - be relatively more prepared to set up shop in underserviced areas.

Both solutions present challenges, but the latter was clearly a golden opportunity to do SOMETHING without invoking widespread anti-tax backlash that our electorate is becoming more and more fond of and also avoiding the nightmare negotiations with the states' over public dental infrastructure.

So why didn't they do it, when it was so obvious and they had the data? Can't 100% say, all I know is it represents the norm - governments avoid regulating dentistry.


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Tomw2

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Re: 'Dental glut' sparks call to cap university graduates
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2013, 12:27:58 pm »
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^Do you think it's because the government is keen for some fast cash?
I heard the application procedure is not cheap, so they may want to make it more attractive for overseas dentists?

The thought had crossed my mind. But despite the high price, there's also high costs for the government bodies. I reckon any net gain would be insignificant in the scheme of things and certainly not big enough to specifically instigate this kind of policy for that particular purpose.

I'm not sure, but I suspect it's a simple case of an overly simple, cheap, quick, poorly thought out response to a skim-read health workforce report. In order to implement those type of visa conditions a significant amount of planning and preparation would need to take place.


2012-2015 | Doctor of Dental Surgery, University of Melbourne
2012-2015 | Master of Public Health, University of Sydney (part-time)
2012-2012 | Grad Dip Careers Education & Development, RMIT University
2005-2011 | Bachelor of Arts / Bachelor of Science (Hons), Monash University