Racism in Australia

[EvangelionZeta]

> there is a perception of Asian-Australians as less creative and less independent, which is the flip side of the perception of Asian-Australians as hardworking/academically inclined (ie. they are all tiger parented but don't develop themselves), which could in part account for the "bamboo ceiling" phenomena

I think the same way about Asian-Australians, even though I am one. This is not racism, it's just your typical stereotyping. Similar generalisations apply to the white population as well, such as tradies are bogans and St. Kilda is full of douchebags.

Also, let's face it, a large majority of Asian-Australians aren't very creative nor independent; there are always exceptions, but a stereotype doesn't appear out of thin air.

What differentiates stereotyping from racism?  Moreover, even assuming that there is truth to these claims, does this mean that we should in fact perpetuate/not challenge them?  After all, it's often culture which reinforces culture; the less people challenge the assumption that race/ethnicity means you are going to be a certain type of person, the more that assumption becomes entrenched, and that's when things get particularly problematic.

[Mao]

What differentiates stereotyping from racism?  Moreover, even assuming that there is truth to these claims, does this mean that we should in fact perpetuate/not challenge them?  After all, it's often culture which reinforces culture; the less people challenge the assumption that race/ethnicity means you are going to be a certain type of person, the more that assumption becomes entrenched, and that's when things get particularly problematic.

Stereotyping based on race is not so different to stereotyping based on hair color or profession. Perhaps the line between racism and stereotyping is poorly defined, but I don't think every racial stereotype is necessarily racist.

Perhaps there are some negative connotations attached to this, that certain Asian people are disadvantaged when applying for certain jobs, but there are plenty of other disadvantageous stereotypes too: fat people are lazy, blondes are stupid, dreadlocks are for gypsies and stoners, tattoos and piercings are druggos. I believe these are all in the same category, and racial stereotypes don't deserve a more elevated status than these issues.

Also, stereotypes can be quite practical.

[EvangelionZeta]

Stereotyping based on race is not so different to stereotyping based on hair color or profession. Perhaps the line between racism and stereotyping is poorly defined, but I don't think every racial stereotype is necessarily racist.

Perhaps there are some negative connotations attached to this, that certain Asian people are disadvantaged when applying for certain jobs, but there are plenty of other disadvantageous stereotypes too: fat people are lazy, blondes are stupid, dreadlocks are for gypsies and stoners, tattoos and piercings are druggos. I believe these are all in the same category, and racial stereotypes don't deserve a more elevated status than these issues.

Also, stereotypes can be quite practical.

The difference here is that a lot of the things you've talked about (professions, tattoos, hairstyle/colour, etc.) are things that you have control over.  You choose to buy into those things, and to by extension, incorporate the narratives surrounding them into your identity.

You NEVER choose what ethnicity you are born into. 

That is the crucial difference, and why it is damaging to people to use or buy into racial stereotypes.  By using racial stereotypes, you are necessarily confining people to something that they have no choice over - you are limiting their autonomy, and their ability to actualise their identities. 

This is also why feminists, queer movements etc. are the ones who are so against stereotypes - again, because they are stereotypes based on things that you have no control over, which should not be meaningful as a result.  The ultimate agenda is to have people always be defined by things that they choose, and not by what they are born as; and this is why this is also still a debate about rights and freedom.

[Professor Polonsky]

Even if we are to accept stereotypes are racist (which they can be), the ones we have today are... rather mild to be honest. Civil rights leaders would be delighted to know those are the troubles in our society.

[brenden]

Even if we are to accept stereotypes are racist (which they can be), the ones we have today are... rather mild to be honest. Civil rights leaders would be delighted to know those are the troubles in our society.

What are you trying to say? Harvey Milk would be delighted by the rights afforded to gay people in our society... that doesn't mean they aren't discriminated against. "It's not as bad as it was before" or "it's not that bad" aren't good reasons to refrain from condemning something.

Away from the stereotyping direction, I think there's a huge racist culture in Australia.
"Fuck off, we're full"
"Why are we taking boats? Blow the fuckers up, send 'em back to where they came from."
"Fucking gooks taking our jobs".
Racism is an extremely, extremely embarrassing facet of Australia. This is anecdotal (obviously), but from my own experience and the reported experience of many others, one of Australia's international associations is racism. Right next to Crocodile Dundee and Steve Irwin.

[Professor Polonsky]

What are you trying to say? Harvey Milk would be delighted by the rights afforded to gay people in our society... that doesn't mean they aren't discriminated against. "It's not as bad as it was before" or "it's not that bad" aren't good reasons to refrain from condemning something.

You're right, and infinite amount of love for mentioning Milk. However, I think that there is a bit of a difference. Affording extra legal protections is a matter of amending a law. To change societal values, or something as basic as stereotyping (which I doubt you even could change, biological nature etc) requires a far greater effort. While ideally it should still be done, it would require such massive public information campaigns that it's questionable whether that effort would not be better expended elsewhere.

Away from the stereotyping direction, I think there's a huge racist culture in Australia.
"Fuck off, we're full"

Legitimate view on immigration that is simply expressed badly.

"Why are we taking boats? Blow the fuckers up, send 'em back to where they came from."

Fair enough

"Fucking gooks taking our jobs".

Legitimate macroeconomic view expressed badly

Racism is an extremely, extremely embarrassing facet of Australia. This is anecdotal (obviously), but from my own experience and the reported experience of many others, one of Australia's international associations is racism. Right next to Crocodile Dundee and Steve Irwin.

Not from my experience, actually - and I'm hardly an insider or anything, and have been around the world - but I can accept that has been some people's experience.
[/quote]

[brenden]

I dont think you were in the country at the time, but - ever heard of the Cronulla riots?

[Professor Polonsky]

Of course. The result of a failing immigration system, though luckily we haven't had it as bad as Europe. An irrational retaliation carried in a stupid populist way. (Of course, people fail to mention that most of the real violence was caused by the Middle Eastern side, but perhaps that's irrelevant. Perhaps not.)

[brenden]

"This Sunday every Fucking Aussie in the shire, get down to North Cronulla to help support Leb and wog bashing day...Bring your mates down and let's show them this is our beach and they're never welcome back"

"Just a reminder that Cronulla's 1st wog bashing day is still on this Sunday. Chinks bashing day is on the 27th and the Jews are booked for early January"

"Every fucking aussie.Go to Cronulla Beach Sunday for some Leb and wog bashing Aussie Pride ok"

"All leb / wog brothers. Sunday midday. Must be at North Cronulla Park. These skippy aussies want war. Bring ur guns and knives and lets show them how we do it."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots

Legitimate view on immigration that is simply expressed badly.

I think you're fooling yourself if you legitimately believe that the people that have "fuck off we're full" bumper stickers are actually badly expressing a legitimate view on immigration.
I am not denying that there is perhaps a legitimate immigration concern for some non-racist Australians.
However, to infer that "fuck off we're full" is actually a non-racist Australian trying to say "I think our immigration system is failing and Australia can't healthily harbour more immigrants" instead of a racist Australian saying "I don't fucking like Arab cunts so I don't want them in my country, so I'm going to put a realllllllllly witty bumper sticker on my car" -- well, I think you're a bit off-centre on that one...

Legitimate macroeconomic view expressed badly

Same thing, perhaps there is a legitimate macroeconomic view, but if there is, I highly doubt that anyone saying 'fucking gooks are taking our jobs' are concerned with macroeconomics. Get your Occam's razor out - these phrases are more simply explained by racism than by a concern about macroeconomics.

[Professor Polonsky]

"This Sunday every Fucking Aussie in the shire, get down to North Cronulla to help support Leb and wog bashing day...Bring your mates down and let's show them this is our beach and they're never welcome back"

"Just a reminder that Cronulla's 1st wog bashing day is still on this Sunday. Chinks bashing day is on the 27th and the Jews are booked for early January"

"Every fucking aussie.Go to Cronulla Beach Sunday for some Leb and wog bashing Aussie Pride ok"

"All leb / wog brothers. Sunday midday. Must be at North Cronulla Park. These skippy aussies want war. Bring ur guns and knives and lets show them how we do it."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots

Sure. But that was hardly a premeditated plan to go after those of an ethnic origin (it was an justifiably angry mob), and the riot itself remained largely non-violent apart from a couple of incidents. Instead, it was those of ethnic origin who were behind most of the violence.

I think you're fooling yourself if you legitimately believe that the people that have "fuck off we're full" bumper stickers are actually badly expressing a legitimate view on immigration.
I am not denying that there is perhaps a legitimate immigration concern for some non-racist Australians.
However, to infer that "fuck off we're full" is actually a non-racist Australian trying to say "I think our immigration system is failing and Australia can't healthily harbour more immigrants" instead of a racist Australian saying "I don't fucking like Arab cunts so I don't want them in my country, so I'm going to put a realllllllllly witty bumper sticker on my car" -- well, I think you're a bit off-centre on that one...

Well, there are two possibilities. Either "fuck off we're full" expresses opposition to all immigration, or just to Arab immigration. Even if it is the latter, looking at European countries, I'd say there's ample reason to oppose excessive Arab immigration. They become an economic burden, raise crime rates, and you could even say become a fifth column of sorts. You can't maintain a modern, liberal country if a significant proportion of your population opposes everything that liberal democracy stands for. See, for example, France. That just leads on to further ethnic tension, and to the rise of extremist parties.

Same thing, perhaps there is a legitimate macroeconomic view, but if there is, I highly doubt that anyone saying 'fucking gooks are taking our jobs' are concerned with macroeconomics. Get your Occam's razor out - these phrases are more simply explained by racism than by a concern about macroeconomics.

Actually, here I'm going to even more strongly disagree. Replace 'gooks' with Chinese and you get an entirely valid statement. We are running our national industries dry with our laissez faire free-trade policies. All the jobs are going off overseas. Sure, those saying "Fucking gooks are taking our jobs" probably don't have a very deep understanding of macroeconomics, but they still realise that there is a problem.

[brenden]

Sure. But that was hardly a premeditated plan to go after those of an ethnic origin (it was an justifiably angry mob), and the riot itself remained largely non-violent apart from a couple of incidents. Instead, it was those of ethnic origin who were behind most of the violence.

I don't care about the violence or the instigators, those text messages contain undeniably racist sentiments.

Well, there are two possibilities. Either "fuck off we're full" expresses opposition to all immigration, or just to Arab immigration. Even if it is the latter, looking at European countries, I'd say there's ample reason to oppose excessive Arab immigration. They become an economic burden, raise crime rates, and you could even say become a fifth column of sorts. You can't maintain a modern, liberal country if a significant proportion of your population opposes everything that liberal democracy stands for. See, for example, France. That just leads on to further ethnic tension, and to the rise of extremist parties.

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Actually, here I'm going to even more strongly disagree. Replace 'gooks' with Chinese and you get an entirely valid statement. We are running our national industries dry with our laissez faire free-trade policies. All the jobs are going off overseas. Sure, those saying "Fucking gooks are taking our jobs" probably don't have a very deep understanding of macroeconomics, but they still realise that there is a problem.

It doesn't matter if the statement is valid, the sentiment behind the phrase is racist. They aren't expressing an unbiased opinion on economic, they're expressing racism, and in expressing their racism they stumble onto a potential problem.

[ShiCarnt]

Take it this way, I am from Serbia, in Serbia, we always talk of the other ex-Yugoslav nations with racist jokes, yet this is something of a paradox to us because by definition for us a joke cannot be serious and thus cannot have a serious racist premise.

Not meaning to lower the level of this conversation, or make broad generalisations about Serbians, but it is probably the worst example you could have possibly picked. It's questionable that you make these wide claims about Australia as a whole; when, in a similar respect one could make sweeping statements about Serbians on their actions some twenty years ago. Both of which are equally invalid.

On the topic of reverse racism, it is entirely real. Any form of discrimination of peoples based solely on their ethnicity and origins is, by definition, racism. A minority ethnic group segregating themselves from wider society fits the definition of racism, because it is, discriminating on the basis of race.

Another point is that culture =/= race. It is not racist to expect immigrants to assimilate to the culture of a country. There is no rule that Australian culture is white Australian culture; it is the culture of the country at large and really what makes a country, a country. Whether it is unfair or impracticable is a different conversation but it is not racist in of itself. It can be used as a vehicle for racism, but it is not inherently racist. The main problem is misattribution by those that, frankly, do not know any better. The worries about Arabs for most people are that they bring with them terrorism and a set of laws incongruent with modern Australia. That is, a fair and reasonable thing to fear; but it becomes racist when Arabs in general carry these labels - and that is what the problem is. I do not believe that many Australians are racist in the most fundamental sense - that is that they harbour hatred for someone based solely on their ethnicity. Rather fears of fairly rational problems manifest themselves in the form of racism, and on this the media and lack of education are really to blame.

To get to the root of this is not to blame white-skinned folk for things that have happened in the past, rather to move beyond this. It's racist to make the assertion that white Australians are racist - simply because they are white. It is the same as if you said people of African origin are uncivilised simply because they are of said origin. It is reasonable to provide help and support to remote outback communities, and to apologise to the Stolen Generations. But when all white Australians are meant to bear some kind of guilt on the basis of their ethnicity, that itself is the very definition of racism. People in power made poor decisions and they carry the responsibility for that, maybe some people carry some responsibility because they failed in their responsibility to protect - but never solely because of their skin colour.

[catnus]

I believe that it is extremely hard to argue that there does not exist an undercurrent of racism in Australian society, expressed mostly through a lack of sensitivity and general ignorance. Racial stereotyping and the like is not only exasperating and bothersome but also genuinely and deeply hurtful for many, and an added burden during adolescence. I have lost count of the amount of times that my achievements have been derisively put down as the product of hours of work which my parents demanded from me, even when I go to great lengths to explain that this is not the case. Any jokes about my ethnicity are qualified with the statement that it was 'only a joke', which I definitely understand, but the fact remains that it can be incredibly hurtful, especially when it comes from people who I hardly know.

There is also, I feel, a biais which exists against the use of any language other than English to communicate in public. I have been told to 'learn English' (despite the fact I am indiscernable from a native speaker), and 'speak English because you're in Australia'. To reply, I usually ask these people what language they speak when they go overseas to countries which do not speak English (the answer is most assuredly not the language of that country).

I feel as if being a migrant, and all the benefits (such as cultural awareness and understanding, multilingualism, kickass food) which that entails, are not seen as being of any worth to Australia as a whole. I also feel as if my ethnicity itself disqualifies me from the outset from truly being part of an Australian society modelled on Anglo-Saxon ideals. Although I see myself as belonging to such a community, and sharing the values which the nation espouses, many Australians would consider my capacity to be 'fully' Australian to be somehow reduced by the fact I am not Caucasian, something which has been expressed to me by others, and something which I have grown to resent.

Overall however, I feel that Australia as a nation is not as 'racist' as other countries, as it offers a very attractive lifestyle and culture to which many immigrants aspire. Just my two cents.

[Frozone]

Here are my two cents:
I don't think racism in Australia is that bad as in other places.
I also partially agree with polonium when he was talking about the Cronulla riots occurring due to failed(if you may say) immigration policies..
I also do believe that Australia have to carefully watch the way they handle Asylum seekers as a large influx of refugees can result in conflict. E.g. What is happening in Greece right now and Golden Dawn in which some say is "Thug Politics"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_ukaXTgI2o

And if you want any further explanation of how racism in Australia is not as bad as in other places i'll be glad to explain through my experiences.