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May 05, 2024, 08:18:35 pm

Author Topic: The inevitable question  (Read 7570 times)  Share 

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mikehepro

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2013, 05:16:09 pm »
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Can I see some links to these experiments and their findings, thanks. The soul as a physical thing is not something that is accepted or commonly investigated.

http://www.dapla.org/pdf/whs.pdf
There's another experiment on the soul issue, but it does go to further talk about the dark matter and dark plasma theory, that's another thing all together.
Edit: there's really too much factors on this issue, these experiments might not be true after all and soul might not even exist at all, who knows.
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pterozachtyl

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2013, 05:29:12 pm »
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Hmm, going by this logic, wouldn't it be better to assume there is one and have your expectations pleasantly fulfilled, because if they aren't fulfilled it's not like you'll ever know about it? (Pretty much just summarised Pascal's wager)
That's brilliant. But I've never believed in an afterlife, and it would take some damn convincing evidence to persuade me otherwise.
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Lolly

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2013, 06:02:35 pm »
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Quote
(philosophical zombie)


http://consc.net/papers/nature.pdf

:D
Quote
"According to this argument, it is conceivable that there be a system that is physically identical to a
conscious being, but that lacks at least some of that being’s conscious states. Such a system might
be a zombie: a system that is physically identical to a conscious being but that lacks consciousness
entirely."
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 06:10:25 pm by lollymatron »

EvangelionZeta

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2013, 02:08:37 pm »
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re: Polonium/Lolz, Chalmers' zombie argument isn't really about the soul at all - it's more just trying to suggest that physiology and consciousness possess different properties, which is quite a distinct thing from saying that there exists a physical body and a metaphysical soul. 
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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2013, 07:31:45 pm »
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Heaven/hell.

brenden

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2013, 07:51:02 pm »
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Heaven/hell.
What do you think determines where people go? Like, does an atheist go to hell simply by virtue of being an atheist, even if they live a Christian way of life? (Or whatever morally righteous way of life you choose?). P.S not attacking you, I'm just curious.
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grannysmith

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2013, 08:01:24 pm »
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Good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell.

How would you define 'good' and 'bad'?

Just curious about what you guys think.

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2013, 09:46:26 pm »
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*I have split some discussion that was occurring into this thread and moved it into Rants.
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brightsky

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2013, 11:13:28 pm »
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curiously, there seems to be a growing number of people experiencing some form of existential crisis in their teenage years. as odd as this may sound, i think this a good thing.

a few points though:

- in order to answer the question 'what happens after death', one must first ascertain what exactly 'death' is. death is a piece of a jargon that has been bandied about since god-knows-when, and is often used in quotidian discourse as an antonym for life. indeed, 'the cessation of life' seems to be a very intuitive definition of death. but this begs the question: what exactly is life? i shall gloss over some key philosophical debates and viewpoints, and boldly assert that if you really think about it, life is simply the persistence of consciousness (although this, i'm aware, has pretty radical implications, which i am more than prepared to accept - do we cease to live when we are unconscious?). if we accept this definition of life, then death simply becomes 'the cessation of consciousness'. now think about this. alarm bells should go off. assuming that we derive our knowledge from experience (not simply sensory experience but other kinds of experience as well), and the 'having of experience', aka perception, requires the persistence of consciousness, the concept of death, as a human construct (because the word 'death' clearly refers to something in our world of experience), is simply beyond our scope. we can theorise and postulate, but at the end of the day what do we have to work with? experiences of other 'humans' 'dying'. i feel the need here to drive a wedge and hence illuminate the distinction between subject and object; we can only ever perceive objects dying...the supposition that what applies to objects applies also to subjects is a bigger leap of faith than may initially appear...

- this next point is directed at polonium. what exactly do you mean by 'soul'? philosophers over the ages have adopted different definitions, without necessarily being conscious of the fact, and this is very bad, because what ends up happening is philosophers start to argue about different things, resulting in stagnation of the worst possible kind. by soul, do you mean the 'thing' that gives life to body? (even this is problematic because you would then have to provide adequate definitions for body and life). or do you mean 'consciousness'/ 'awareness'/ 'will'? and how meaningful are the adjectives 'physical' and 'metaphysical'? what exactly do you mean by 'physical'? if the word physical is simply used to describe a different mode of experience (i do not experience tables and chairs for instance in the way i do ideas), then i think the answer is obvious, but not anything revelatory. i can't touch, feel and smell ideas in the way i can touch, feel and smell physical objects. that is revealed through experience. no debate.

- the notions of heaven and of hell have been raised. these notions amount to nothing more than speculation. as far as i'm aware, no one has ever had any experience of heaven or hell. and all knowledge is derived from experience, as mentioned earlier. (i have an affinity for empiricism...yes...but so do the majority of people on this forum...so i think...as evidenced by the repeated demands for scientific proof.) the words 'heaven' and 'hell', like all words, are human constructs that describe something in the human world of experience. but i have a sneaky suspicion that these words refer not to particular objects, but rather 'composite entities'. kind of like the word 'unicorn', which, i'm sure many of you would agree, refers not to any particular observable object in the world of experience, but rather to a complex combination of individual objects (the unicorn derives its horn from rhinos, its body from horses, etc.). we ought to remain faithful to experience, and not let our imagination get the better of us (it is perfectly legit to posit that we all live in a matrix. it remains a legitimate possibility. but such an account of our existence reaches beyond the scope of human experience, and therefore must be considered pure speculation).

- even if we turn into 'nothing' when we die, that doesn't necessarily mean our lives are meaningless. nihilism is quite indefensible. consider what exactly 'meaning' is. if by meaning you mean 'divine purpose', then perhaps the conclusion is defensible. i shall boldly assert that lives are made meaningful by 'wills', by which i mean 'forces' which constitute the self. i don't want to make generalizations here, but i think it's reasonable to assume that all humans have wills, and therefore have certain desires, which they strive to fulfil. some are more attracted to bodily pleasures, others find 'spiritual' pleasures more alluring (there are people who like learning, like being respected by their peers, etc. etc.). the fulfilment of desires brings pleasure (or if you don't like that term, happiness), and this, i claim, is the meaning of life, the end of all ends, and the ultimate goal of all humans (by virtue of the fact that all humanity possess wills).
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brightsky

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2013, 11:51:05 pm »
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Good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell.

How would you define 'good' and 'bad'?

Just curious about what you guys think.

it seems clear to me that morality is nothing but a human construct. the supposition that moral properties are objective/universal is just pure speculation, since in order to verify the truth of such a proposition, one would have to go beyond the limits of experience, which is, quite plainly, impossible. the words 'good' and 'bad', like all words, correspond to something in the world of experience. after a bit of meditation, you will inevitably discover that the words describe merely those attributes which are common to all human wills. furthermore, the words, like all words, are discovered through experience, this time of a specific sort. we develop our conception of 'good' and 'bad' through experience of moral imperatives (think of the first time you were castigated by your parents). since different people have different experiences, there is a good chance that the words 'good' and 'bad' mean slightly different things to different people. an indigenous australian would in all likelihood subscribe to a moral code that is markedly different from that espoused by, say, a person of asian descent, etc. the important thing to glean from this is that moral properties reflect merely the innate and learned preferences of a collectivity, and not something objective, whatever that term may mean.
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brenden

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2013, 11:54:01 pm »
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Brightsky, did you just make an argument for moral relativism?
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EvangelionZeta

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2013, 12:03:38 am »
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Brightsky, did you just make an argument for moral relativism?

I'd say he is more arguing moral nihilism. Moral relativism implies that there is still some meaningful standard people can follow - brightsky is going beyond good and evil.
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brenden

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2013, 12:14:52 am »
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I'm confused between the opening line (moral nihilism) and the latter half of the post is talking about learned preferences if a collectivity (which suggested relitavism to me)
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brightsky

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2013, 12:18:53 am »
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Brightsky, did you just make an argument for moral relativism?

well, i don't really like declaring allegiance to any particular philosophy, given that there is a good chance that my beliefs do not coincide entirely with any pre-existing philosophy. moral relativism is quite intuitively unappealing, because it appears at first bemusing how an act can be simultaneously good and bad. i'm not prepared to make any metaphysical statement other than 'i exist'. i'm simply arguing that an act can be perceived as good by one person and as bad by another. on this point, there is little dispute. some people consider abortion to be morally objectionable, others deem it morally permissible. i don't think it is at all justified to say stuff like 'killing is wrong', since such statements already assume that there exists a set of objective rules dictating what ought to be done and what ought not to be done, an assumption that is unjustified for reasons i have discussed in my previous post. and the sad thing is, very often, when people condemn others and say stuff like 'killing is wrong', they don't mean simply 'i perceive killing to be wrong, by virtue of the experience i have had, etc.'; they help themselves to the aforementioned assumption. also, bear in mind that i am not writing off all moral codes as preposterous; i genuinely think that moral codes are necessary to bring about the good life. i am simply calling for a renewed appreciation for what exactly moral codes are: they are not objective codes, but are artificial, man-made, put in place so that the chance of happiness for all might be maximised.

I'd say he is more arguing moral nihilism. Moral relativism implies that there is still some meaningful standard people can follow - brightsky is going beyond good and evil.

i haven't actually read 'beyond good and evil', but the argument that nietzsche advances in 'genealogy of morals' is not very compelling at all. he is quite a slippery philosopher...and i think a certain someone agrees...
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 12:22:28 am by brightsky »
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EvangelionZeta

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Re: The inevitable question
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2013, 12:21:34 am »
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I'm confused between the opening line (moral nihilism) and the latter half of the post is talking about learned preferences if a collectivity (which suggested relitavism to me)

He is being a descriptive there, as opposed to being normative (which is what the usual usage of moral relativism implies). He's saying that what we construe to be morals are context-dependent; this is not a claim about what we SHOULD do, and is just a deconstruction of reality.
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