[offtopic split] Egalitariansm + feminism + related topics

[Special At Specialist]

Okay. Let's be rational.

That's what I like to hear

Do you think that women in Australia are on complete equal footing as men at the the moment?

No.

And if not, how much discrimination do you think we face?
I'd be interested to know how much you know of the fuckery we deal with.

Job opportunities: I think things are roughly equal, but in different ways. For example, it's easier for a woman to get into the police force (and many other public sector jobs), because they go actively looking for women and other minorities, but it's harder for a pregnant or married woman to find a job in the private sector, because a lot of employers will assume that you may need to take a leave of absence, which is not something that they are willing to risk.

Power/influence: Again, I think things are roughly equal. Let's not forget that the richest person in Australia (who has held this position for several years) is a woman. Also, a few years ago, the prime minister and the chief police commissioner were both women. Australian women have plenty of opportunities to hold powerful, authoritative positions.

Support groups: I think that women have a clear advantage here. Approximately 75% of suicide victims are male [1], yet there are so many more support groups devoted specifically to women than there are for men. The feminist movement does absolutely nothing to address the issue of suicide amongst young Australians. If anything, it contributes to the problem by pretending that men do not face the same difficulties in life as women, and hence do not need as many support groups.

Sexualisation: I think that women are sexualised much more than men. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that all men are horny predators, but there are a lot of people out there who will treat you differently depending on the way you look, the way you dress and how "sexy" you appear. This is a problem that I do not deny the existence of.

1) http://www.beyondblue.org.au/about-us/programs/mens-program/program-activities/suicide-prevention-program

[vox nihili]

Job opportunities: I think things are roughly equal, but in different ways. For example, it's easier for a woman to get into the police force (and many other public sector jobs), because they go actively looking for women and other minorities, but it's harder for a pregnant or married woman to find a job in the private sector, because a lot of employers will assume that you may need to take a leave of absence, which is not something that they are willing to risk.

Power/influence: Again, I think things are roughly equal. Let's not forget that the richest person in Australia (who has held this position for several years) is a woman. Also, a few years ago, the prime minister and the chief police commissioner were both women. Australian women have plenty of opportunities to hold powerful, authoritative positions.

Support groups: I think that women have a clear advantage here. Approximately 75% of suicide victims are male [1], yet there are so many more support groups devoted specifically to women than there are for men. The feminist movement does absolutely nothing to address the issue of suicide amongst young Australians. If anything, it contributes to the problem by pretending that men do not face the same difficulties in life as women, and hence do not need as many support groups.

Sexualisation: I think that women are sexualised much more than men. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that all men are horny predators, but there are a lot of people out there who will treat you differently depending on the way you look, the way you dress and how "sexy" you appear. This is a problem that I do not deny the existence of.

1) http://www.beyondblue.org.au/about-us/programs/mens-program/program-activities/suicide-prevention-program

Even with affirmative action women are less likely to get a high paying job. Sure, there are absolutely incentives to take women into certain careers, but that doesn't mean that they will necessarily advance themselves in those fields. Take medicine for example. There are far more female doctors working in medicine, yet on average they still get paid less than male doctors.

Gina Reinhart is the exception that proves the rule. Those examples are just cherry picked. There is no way that women command as much power or influence as men. Indeed, this is probably the area of discrimination that is most pronounced.

You do make a very important point by highlighting men's health though. It's certainly an enormous issue and has been mentioned on this thread before. With that said, I don't think it's particularly constructive to try to pit the sexes against each other. Mainly because if someone is sexist to a woman, if someone denies a woman an opportunity to advance her career for example for no other reason than that she's a woman, it's not just women who miss out, it's men as well. I've said on a few occasions here, sexism ensures that the best and the brightest are kept out. 

[brenden]

If I need citations for every single claim I make, I think you be should doing the same.

You need a citation for every logically hilarious claim you make, which so far has been a great deal of them.

shitty statistical research that is based purely off anecdotal evidence. *Cough* The 1/3 women are sexually abused claim *Cough*

You disgust me in the deepest sense of the word.




Sense, don't hide behind Trav talking about the women's room when a few pages ago your argument was that feminism was about superiority not equality (hehe, cutie pie).

Here's why you're ridiculous.
You're taking what's extreme and saying it's what's average.

Take someone who says "Muslims are, on the whole, terrorists".
Or, "Black people are, on the whole, thugs and killers!"
or, "asylum seekers, on the whole, are economic migrants"
or, "Jews runs the Illum!nat3"

These are necessarily ridiculous. "Black people are generally people with black skin, some of whom steal, the same as white people" or, "asylum seekers are generally asylum seekers, some of whom are economic migrants" etc etc... these just don't require a citation. Unless you want to say that ATAR Notes has higher standards than peer-reviewed journals, then these things don't need a citation. What does need a citation are things like

"feminist movement as a whole is causing more hate than there originally was and trying to advocate social justice and equality by degrading men." (Which doesn't make logical sense, because if there's an inequality, and feminists were trying to reach equality whilst believing that women were socially "less", they wouldn't be improving the status of women at all, which surely is the whole idea?)

"the majority of 'feminists' want superiority not equality." .........lol

And just for lols: "the word feminism in the title just annoyed me"

If you can't see why you need citations and why people claiming non-extreme things don't need a citation, then I worry for your university career.

[BucketPreacher]

"Black people are generally people with black skin, some of whom steal, the same as white people" or, "asylum seekers are generally asylum seekers, some of whom are economic migrants" etc etc... these just don't require a citation. Unless you want to say that ATAR Notes has higher standards than peer-reviewed journals, then these things don't need a citation. What does need a citation are things like

It is pretty well-known that there is a greater concentration within the african-american race for crime than adverse ethnicities. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think african-americans are of about 12-15% of the US population in NA but make up about 45% of incarcerated inmates in the US, and U.S.A is #1 in the world for most incarcerated citizens per capita. Totally spewing facts from the Newsroom here. [google time] 4.1% of US citizens are on welfare - 39.8% of these recipients are black. It's pretty insulting these statistics even exist.
 
Whilst that is said, the majority of black people are good people like the majority of white people. Quite a shame. Black people have however, had their independence for a much shorter time than white people and are still being hit by the effects.

[brenden]

It is pretty well-known that there is a greater concentration within the african-american race for crime than adverse ethnicities. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think african-americans are of about 12-15% of the US population in NA but make up about 45% of incarcerated inmates in the US, and U.S.A is #1 in the world for most incarcerated citizens per capita. Totally spewing facts from the Newsroom here. [google time] 4.1% of US citizens are on welfare - 39.8% of these recipients are black. It's pretty insulting these statistics even exist.
 
Whilst that is said, the majority of black people are good people like the majority of white people. Quite a shame. Black people have however, had their independence for a much shorter time than white people and are still being hit by the effects.

I'm aware that black people are convicted for more crimes than white people in the US. I agree it's insulting, as those statistics say a lot more about society than they do about black people.

[Russ]

If I need citations for every single claim I make, I think you be should doing the same. You and two others keep asking for evidence, yet you haven't provided any for claims like 'the social balance is tilted so far in one direction (yours)'. Can someone please link me to something, and no, not some shitty statistical research that is based purely off anecdotal evidence. *Cough* The 1/3 women are sexually abused claim *Cough*

Well since you entered the thread with those claims, it's not unreasonable to expect you to actually cite them, rather than just hiding behind 'oh you haven't posted evidence either'

Oh and you want evidence from me about societal imbalance? It's generally pretty well accepted, but if you don't believe women face discrimination, sure;

http://isite157254.web08.intellisite.com/files/PDFForms/Gender%20and%20Social%20Influence_Carli_2001.pdf
http://psp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/39/12/1585
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/orgs/etag/_files/pdfs/articles/2012/RiegleCrumbEtal2012MoreThings.pdf
http://websrv-prod.unet.brandeis.edu/investigate/teenSH1/PDFarticles/Schneider-et-al_Job_Related_and_Psychological_Effects_of_Sexual_Harassment_in_the_Workplace_1997.pdf
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/content/sexualharassment/survey/SHSR_2012%20Web%20Version%20Final.pdf
https://www.melbourneinstitute.com/downloads/conferences/conferences_outlook%202011/7C_Cobb-Clark.pdf

I only picked a few, on broad topics because I figured you wouldn't want too many academic papers to read. The last one is a powerpoint presentation that is pretty good at summarising.

And as was posted in this thread already but ignored

http://www.annesummers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Gender-Equality-Stats-2009.doc http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/c311215.nsf/web/Gender

And since you took a shot at 'shitty statistical research' based on 'anecdotal evidence', I'm going to have to ask for clarification. I assume you're referring to this AIC report. What is it about the research methods that you find unacceptable? What about their statistical analysis is it that you think is trying manipulate the data? Why do you consider n=6677 to be 'anecdotal' and therefore easy to dismiss?

There are obviously methodological limitations (as there are with any research) but I don't see them as significant enough to dismiss the paper. I think they do an excellent analysis of such on p33. Their result, that 34% of surveyed women have experienced sexual violence at /some point/ in their life, doesn't seem obviously flawed (p38 if lazy).

Oh and people asking for evidence, and then ignoring others when they ask for yours, I mean come on. Not everything is documented quantitatively and people can still give viewpoints based on their prior experiences in life.

People are welcome to offer their viewpoint based on whatever experiences they have had. If their viewpoint is ignorant, it'll get treated as such.

People holding up Gina Rineheart as proof that women have an equitable share of power/influence in Australian society are just deluding themselves. She's the one in a million (less) who was born into her wealth and power.

[heart]

bump for more controversy edit-added link for discussion  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11633305/University-union-officer-who-wrote-kill-all-white-men-tweet-will-remain-in-post.html?fb_ref=Default