[offtopic split] Egalitariansm + feminism + related topics

[Hancock]

Oh and people asking for evidence, and then ignoring others when they ask for yours, I mean come on. Not everything is documented quantitatively and people can still give viewpoints based on their prior experiences in life.

[achre]

This thread is a trainwreck.
And not even an interesting one.

[Hancock]

This thread is a trainwreck.
And not even an interesting one.

Great post / 10 mate. Please teach me your ways.

[scribble]

it's not surprising that the people in this thread who are denying the necessity of feminism are all male - males who i dare say have not had to experience sexism on the level that women have to deal with on an all too regular basis. i doubt many of you have any idea how much casual sexism actually exists in society. ignorance is the issue. if there was more awareness, i doubt it would be possible for anyone to say that feminism is unnecessary. 

I'm all for feminism, but let's face it, the majority of 'feminists' want superiority not equality.

This is absolutely not true.

They face NO legal inequality

just because something isn't *illegal* doesn't make it right. inequality, legal or not, is concerning and should be addressed.

But if 51% of the population was queer AND queer people had exactly the same legal rights as straight people (ie. gay marriage), then I would probably consider it an unnecessary use of limited resources.

what so if same sex marriage were to be legalised and if there were a greater proportion of the population were homosexuals, homophobia would suddenly become acceptable?

[The Usual Student]

I've actually done extensive reading on both sides of this (MRA and Fem), and the majority of posts in this thread show the stereotypical nature each group.

Reading through your posts, it's seems that if someone doesn't agree with a feminist viewpoint, the way an INDIVIDUAL poster interprets it, they are misogynistic. Never mind their view point, he (and let's be honest, in this thread it's always been a he) is automatically shut down by both females and white knights about not being as "informed" as they are. On the other hand, you can't come into a discussion saying you're pro-feminist and they mouth off about their extremist minority.

If feminists want true equality between the two sexes, then things like affirmative action, bake sales were the price for women is lower and the idea of creating "women only" lanes in the UK [1] needs to stop now. The reason that people are discussing this "women's room" at UoM is because the idea of segregation on the basis of sex is not equality at all. Imagine if UoM created a "men's room" before a "women's room". I guarantee there would be SJW banging down on the administration.

Discriminating on the basis of past discrimination and then proclaiming that "women are oppressed!" as a validating statement gets you no where.

[1] - http://www.newstalk.ie/reader/47.339.355/29973/0/

Preach! This whole gender debate is incredibly immature and based on perspectives.

[Special At Specialist]

what so if same sex marriage were to be legalised and if there were a greater proportion of the population were homosexuals, homophobia would suddenly become acceptable?

I never said that. All I said was that the room would be an unnecessary use of limited resources. There aren't enough rooms for everyone, so priority should be given based on:
1) Is that group legally discriminated against?
2) Is that group in the vast minority of the population?

Since the female population answers "no" to both questions, then they should not be given a free room at UoM.

[vox nihili]

You do yourselves a disservice when you pretend that sexism isn't a pressing issue for women. You also do yourselves a disservice when you ignore that it exists for men too, albeit to a much lesser extent. We should want to address sexism towards men and towards women, but it's clear that the bulk of the effort will be aimed at dealing with discrimination against women.

A room segregating men from women is not the answer to sexism and indeed probably does more to advance it.

[Sense]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ji4t7HhIjw 

CBF explaining my point of view anymore, this video pretty much explains it, if you don't agree with something she says, say something and i'm happy to talk about it.

Citation needed.

I would ask for evidence for all the claims.

If I need citations for every single claim I make, I think you be should doing the same. You and two others keep asking for evidence, yet you haven't provided any for claims like 'the social balance is tilted so far in one direction (yours)'. Can someone please link me to something, and no, not some shitty statistical research that is based purely off anecdotal evidence. *Cough* The 1/3 women are sexually abused claim *Cough*

it's not surprising that the people in this thread who are denying the necessity of feminism are all male - males who i dare say have not had to experience sexism on the level that women have to deal with on an all too regular basis.

Wow, just wow. If people are going to call my claims 'ridiculous' and not say anything about this, they're hypocrites.

A room segregating men from women is not the answer to sexism and indeed probably does more to advance it.

Exactly.

[Professor Polonsky]

I might not be back to post here, if this thread doesn't actually lift its game up. I hope this'll help, anyway.

1. Women still face many challenges that men don't. This is still a big issue in our society, and ought to be eradicated. Yeah, patriarchy (institutional power structures favouring men) is a thing, and is a big cause of these issues. If you truly believe that women are afforded an equal opportunity as men, you're only kidding yourself.

The point about women not being strictly legally disadvantaged is irrelevant. A society can treat a group extremely inequitably, whilst affording them the same legal rights and duties. These cultural issues, in some ways, are even harder to address than the legal inequalities -- they're not written on a piece of paper.

2. Feminism is a movement. You don't have to agree with every single thing that every single person associated with this movement does to recognise its importance. That does not mean, however, that you should criticise campaigns simply because they remind you of those challenges that women face (e.g. the cupcake stuff).

3. Even completely ignoring the (quite frankly necessary) context of it, a women's room obviously is desired by many women-identifying students (see: many of the women posters on this thread), and so it is quite beneficial, to say the least. On the other hand, those opposing it are yet to actually come up with a single example of actual harm caused by it. Hence, there is absolutely no reason to do away with it. It seems to me like the reason they're opposed is that mentioned in #2 above.

4. I think it'd be wise to agree to treat violence of any sort (and particularly, relevantly to this discussion, sexual and domestic) as extremely serious issues, and not try to use them for point-scoring. Victims (of both genders) require support, and for society to do its best to ensure that there are as few future victims as possible. Those issues of course aren't independent of gender, but I think those are important guidelines to stick by.

[scribble]

I never said that. All I said was that the room would be an unnecessary use of limited resources. There aren't enough rooms for everyone, so priority should be given based on:
1) Is that group legally discriminated against?
2) Is that group in the vast minority of the population?

Since the female population answers "no" to both questions, then they should not be given a free room at UoM.

Casually throwing homophobic or racist slurs is not illegal either. Does that make it okay?

I don't understand what your point about population size is.
You wouldn't deny that deny that feminism was needed 50 years ago would you? Was the population if women any smaller then?
Just because it is common to discriminate against a large group of people doesn't mean that that discrimination is okay/doesn't need to be addressed.

And really, do you realise how big the university is, and how insignificant one room is? You make it sound like the women's room is soaking up the university's money. The women's room doesn't really take up much resources. It's existence is not taking away from another group in need.
We also have a MUMS (Melbourne uni maths and stats) room, which is dedicated to math students. Do you have an issue with that? Does that offend you? Mathematicians are not discriminated against legally, so is it a waste of the university's resources?

You do yourselves a disservice when you pretend that sexism isn't a pressing issue for women. You also do yourselves a disservice when you ignore that it exists for men too, albeit to a much lesser extent. We should want to address sexism towards men and towards women, but it's clear that the bulk of the effort will be aimed at dealing with discrimination against women.

A room segregating men from women is not the answer to sexism and indeed probably does more to advance it.

I'm not at all ignoring that sexism is present toward both sexes. However, I still stand by that men do not experience it to the same level as females do. Likewise I don't feel like sexism towards women is only perpetuated by men; girls often slut shame each other just as much as men do. I have no issues calling people out, regardless of their sex, when they're being closed minded.

Wow, just wow. If people are going to call my claims 'ridiculous' and not say anything about this, they're hypocrites.

Oh. Would you like to clarify what it is I said that you disagree with? because I don't think I said anything particularly ridiculous.

[Special At Specialist]

it's not surprising that the people in this thread who are denying the necessity of feminism are all male - males who i dare say have not had to experience sexism on the level that women have to deal with on an all too regular basis.

Another one of those "you're not a woman; you wouldn't understand" arguments.

I could so easily reverse this and claim that women have a conflict of interest regarding feminism and that we should take everything you say with a grain of salt. But I'm not going to reduce this argument to questioning who is entitled to speak and who isn't. I believe that everyone, regardless of their age or gender, should be given the opportunity to express their opinion regarding feminism.

We also have a MUMS (Melbourne uni maths and stats) room, which is dedicated to math students. Do you have an issue with that? Does that offend you? Mathematicians are not discriminated against legally, so is it a waste of the university's resources?

Except anyone can study maths or stats. You could pick up a calculus textbook right now and enrol in calculus class. I can't just transform myself into a woman and enter the women's room (well, technically I could, but it's still a very different situation).

[scribble]

Another one of those "you're not a woman; you wouldn't understand" arguments.

I could so easily reverse this and claim that women have a conflict of interest regarding feminism and that we should take everything you say with a grain of salt. But I'm not going to reduce this argument to questioning who is entitled to speak and who isn't. I believe that everyone, regardless of their age or gender, should be given the opportunity to express their opinion regarding feminism.

Okay. Let's be rational. Do you think that women in Australia are on complete equal footing as men at the the moment? And if not, how much discrimination do you think we face?
I'd be interested to know how much you know of the fuckery we deal with.

[thushan]

Very little.

They're not on equal footing as men are, but they should be. It's a sad fact that women's salaries are generally lower than the equivalent man's in a country like Australia. It's a sad fact that women who have children are subtly discriminated against in the workplace (i.e. are less likely to be employed).

It's disgusting at how women are slut shamed for dressing in particular ways, and I really, really hate it when even victims of RAPE, disgusting, brutal rape, are being blamed for "dressing provocatively". The support that Christy Mack's ex boyfriend got from the public after he beat her to a pulp, almost killing her for supposedly cheating on him with comments like "that's what you get for messing with a man's pride" made me almost chuck.

From what my female friends tell me - they get sexually harrassing comments on the street all the time, are leered at by creeps on the street. Subtle comments. And not-so subtle comments like "I wonder how she got that promotion".

I'll acknowledge that this is probably only a small sample of the sexism women experience.

Hey Scribble - what kind of other things do you have to deal with? (genuine question)

[vox nihili]

I'm not at all ignoring that sexism is present toward both sexes. However, I still stand by that men do not experience it to the same level as females do. Likewise I don't feel like sexism towards women is only perpetuated by men; girls often slut shame each other just as much as men do. I have no issues calling people out, regardless of their sex, when they're being closed minded.

And this is precisely what I think. I agree with that absolutely 100%.

[scribble]

Except anyone can study maths or stats. You could pick up a calculus textbook right now and enrol in calculus class. I can't just transform myself into a woman and enter the women's room (well, technically I could, but it's still a very different situation).

The issue you put forth was that resources are being wasted on a group of people who are not at enough of a disadvantage (or something along those lines) to need it.