Login

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

May 24, 2024, 06:29:46 pm

Author Topic: What have you got from "education"?  (Read 9223 times)  Share 

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

420/69

  • Adventurer
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Respect: -1
What have you got from "education"?
« on: September 26, 2020, 11:46:49 am »
-3
We go to school for 7hrs a day, learn a bunch of useless facts and concepts that we'll probably never use in our lives (with he exception of a minority, there's vce efficacy for you), and forced, or rather guided to regurgitate it all on a piece of paper within a time frame without space for creativity or intellectual freedom, else we'll get bad grades, work at maccas, etc. All I know is that this isn't education, this is military styled bulimia. Our intellectual potential is bound by the tight spheres that are the study designs. Now that I reflect over my high school years, I'm failing to find anything useful I've leaned that might have bettered me, my family or humanity besides how to cram for a test and forget it all the next day. I just wanna ask, what have you guys learned from VCE or hs in general that was actually worth learning?, what skills have you developed?. I don't feel much more of a critical thinker than back in years 9-10, mindlessly doing AA essays.

homeworkisapotato

  • MOTM: Aug 20
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Respect: +288
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2020, 01:16:27 pm »
+17
Hi 420/69! I completely understand why you feel what you do, and in this lockdown it can be hard to understand what the point of anything is!
Sure, writing essays or memorising SOHCAHTOA may not help you in the future, but the actual process of learning is so important for our cognitive development and without learning and passing knowledge from generation to generation society won't develop or function. One may not need to learn trig but the actual process of learning is a skill which is a must for us as you cannot live life without constantly learning new things.

In VCE I learnt about persistence, resilience, managing stress and anxiety, accepting failures and mistakes and loving myself for it, how to cope with disappointment, how to cope with not being able to control everything, time management, importance of friendships (especially in lockdown), how to deal with cranky people (when you're stuck with the same four people in a house it can be so tiresome), and how important it is to be goal driven. Sure, you may never touch your english books again, but there are so many beautiful moral lessons you can learn from every book you analyse. From my english texts (Tracks and Into the Wild), I learnt that one has to balance structure and going with the flow.

Most of the skills you learn in school is not tangible- they reside in your subconscious and you use them without even realising it. There is nothing stopping you from learning beyond the study design- and I highly recommend you do! There are many ways to create space for creativity in your life like creative writing, visual arts, performing arts, cooking, music, etc. and I think lockdown is the perfect time to do so. Your life will only be as interesting as you make it and it's hard to change the structure of school so try your best to see the beautiful aspect of academics and incorporate some creativity and intellectual freedom into your life beyond school.
All the best 420/69!

Edit: just made grammatical fixes and made it easier to read

And I also wanted to add that the education we receive is a privilege that so many in the world would kill to have so I highly implore you to appreciate what we take for granted everyday!
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 01:20:29 pm by homeworkisapotato »
2020: Biology [43]
2021: Methods, Chemistry, HHD, English, Further
Selective School Entry Tips

The Cat In The Hat

  • MOTM: NOV 20
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 991
  • Do all to the glory of God. - 1 Corinthians 10:31
  • Respect: +344
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2020, 02:35:44 pm »
+10
I tend to feel this should go in 'Rants and Debates', but that may just be me.

What is worth learning in highschool is quite a lot, if you look for it. *Note: I'm not saying I completely disagree with you, just presenting the other side of the argument.

To some extent, you can learn to deal with people, those you are forced into contact with through high school. You can learn to make friends, to deal better with people, to act more normally. To have debates without getting nasty if people don't agree with you. High school tries to teach the value of sustained, consistent effort without just throwing you in the deep end. Various skills are tried to be taught; whether you learn them or not is your choice. Trying to help you grow up within a system of discipline. If you don't like what's being taught, there's also a skill in keeping working even though you don't like something - surely that'll happen in work. Critical thinking is taught at high school. Again, if you don't choose to learn it, you won't get it out of high school.

What you put in is to some extent what you get out of it. I'm not trying to attack you, and apologies if this does seem like it, but high school is not all bad. (It's not all good either, for the record.)

EDIT: beaten by homeworkisapotato due to my computer not submitting. Submitting anyway.
VCE 20
HHD MM Revs (F/R) Eng T&T
ATAR 85
Uni 21-24: BNursing/BMidwifery @ Deakin
Y1T2:
HNM102
HNN122 (double)
HNN114
I hope I don't fail....
Listens to Amira Willighagen and Alma Deutscher and a little Marjolein Acke
~English - PM for P&P/creatives help~
Creative excerpts
Nur/Mid uni journal

For Narnia and for Aslan!

she/her

Basically inactive now. May change. Have a nice day.

420/69

  • Adventurer
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Respect: -1
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2020, 02:42:26 pm »
0
Hey, thanks for responding.

So, as for school improving cognition, I don't think science supports it -  https://twitter.com/DegenRolf/status/1065298637561974786

I agree completely with the second paragraph, no disagreement there. I would be lying if I said I hadn’t developed any integrity through VCE. Kinda questionable though, of all places, learning morals from school books arbitrarily chosen, but I cant really talk here.

So called modern day "education“, though imo, is the biggest obstacle for students attaining intellectual independence and autonomy, let alone creativity. I would gladly spend my time developing myself intellectually, but so much of my time is drained in school and doing useless homework and worrying about grades and worrying about the future, stressing out. Is this really what  education is?, it's pathetic. Education shouldn’t make us feel like this. In high school there is no intellectual exploration, or genuine creation, just mindless conformation to a bunch of brain numbing and draining material, and if you're very lucky, something mildly stimulating.

This “education” that I have undergone really isn't something that I am grateful for. Sure, people in the third world would kill for this, but why? To dedicate their hours and years to useless military styled training, depriving them of their intellectual potential?. What are they going to do with this education?, tell me, in what way can they possibly support their country with a good western "education"?. Personally, I come from a third world country, one plagued with many problems, and I truly see no way I can help my country with this “education”. I would gladly help my country and try to solve them, but this system of education is not conducive of such a pursuit. I urge you to tell me why those would want to chain themselves to this system of education?.

Education is useless, there’s no use for it, though if you look at it from an elitist perspective its a different story. In fact, sometimes, “education” slips in some slight fabrications and misinformations through textbooks that students absorb acquiescently. Have we learned to challenge the information that enters our heads? That is the most important skill a student can learn, to know what's in their heads, not mindlessly and gluttonously consume volumes of shit for a grade, yet we are not taught such a skill, school doesn’t develop this, in fact it does the exact opposite: train us to be conformist for a damn letter. Sorry for going off topic here, but it's a really important point for all students to be considering and actively thinking about, this is how propaganda is spread, and through history, education has been used for this purpose. We need to be critical thinkers, VCE doesn't train us to be such thinkers, it trains us to be conformists. Why do you think Hitler could muster up a whole generation of genocidal Germans, or Mussolini a whole nation of fascists?. It all starts from the classroom.


At the end of the day, most are going to go through this intellectual deprivation to make it to the next step, not for genuine intellectual nourishment or development. Then after this VCE, most will make it into uni, graduate with a piece of paper only to then try to desperately rent themselves to low-mid level corporations. This pretty much seems to me the reality of the majority, I mean just look.

I like your name btw.

periphrasticobfuscation

  • Adventurer
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • It's in our nature
  • Respect: +3
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2020, 03:27:05 pm »
+2
What would you consider a "genuine intellectual exploration"?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 07:05:11 pm by periphrasticobfuscation »
2019: Methods [50] Japanese SL [48]
2020: Latin [35] Specialist Maths [50]  English [44] Chemistry [44] UMEP Maths [4.5]
ATAR: 99.90
UCAT [3100]
2021-2023: Melbourne Uni Bachelor of Biomed

420/69

  • Adventurer
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Respect: -1

K888

  • VIC MVP - 2017
  • National Moderator
  • ATAR Notes Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
  • Respect: +2877
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2020, 04:16:13 pm »
+12
I agree with homeworkisapotato, but would like to add you're not meant to have learnt everything there is to life by the time you've finished VCE. Your early schooling life is designed to give you foundations that you work on as you go through life.

Re: critical thinking skills, mine have developed a lot in uni. I agree it should be focused on more in early schooling years but you can't learn everything and perfect every skill in the time you're in primary school and high school.

420/69

  • Adventurer
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Respect: -1
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2020, 04:56:58 pm »
0
You say early schooling develops foundations, but outside of primary school, what foundations do you attain?. I'm failing to see any. Please, enlighten me. I have posted here because I am actually genuinely curious as to what there is to salvage from this system because, reflecting over my years in VCE and hs in general, I haven't found any. What I have found out though, is that most of the skills and content I have learned in hs could have been learned by my year 6/7 self, probably more earlier if the system was more efficient.



dedformed

  • Trendsetter
  • **
  • Posts: 130
  • Don't be upsetti. Eat some spaghetti.
  • Respect: +135
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2020, 05:55:59 pm »
+9
You say early schooling develops foundations, but outside of primary school, what foundations do you attain?. I'm failing to see any. Please, enlighten me.
Like most people here have pointed out, and according to most of my teachers, school is more for emotional and character development than intellectual stimulation - you  peek into what the real world, and once you discover yourself you can focus on more goals as an adult. Emotionally, you're out of the protective bubble that your carers shelter you with. You learn swear words. Have breakdowns. Meet friends.  Academically, you realise what you like and what you don't. You wont get that much variety unless you're in some standardised system, and nobody is born knowing what they like. If you're at home left to your premises from the start, you wont get to know yourself. I agree that this system is not as differentiated as it could be, but it's not that bad either.
 
So called modern day "education“, though imo, is the biggest obstacle for students attaining intellectual independence and autonomy, let alone creativity. I would gladly spend my time developing myself intellectually, but so much of my time is drained in school and doing useless homework and worrying about grades and worrying about the future, stressing out. Is this really what  education is?, it's pathetic. Education shouldn’t make us feel like this. In high school there is no intellectual exploration, or genuine creation, just mindless conformation to a bunch of brain numbing and draining material, and if you're very lucky, something mildly stimulating.
Pretty sure if you don't like the whole VCE experience (given you've done Year 10) you could opt out and do something that drives you - such as an apprenticeship, take other pathways. VCE is just a standardised and shortcut to tertiary education, because it makes your resume palatable to universities - it's the pathway you've chosen for yourself and not all of "education".

I don't feel much more of a critical thinker than back in years 9-10, mindlessly doing AA essays.
This specific example made me smile because I moved here from overseas a while back and there's no 'critical thinking' there - like you said it's this military like training to get into uni and practicing regurgitation of info - but AA certainly requires a lot of critical thinking. Understanding things like AA and experimental design allows us to see through the persuasive traps of capitalism and build on our critical thinking skills - we realise that all we see on the internet isn't something to be believed, we learn to detect manipulation and see through propaganda. School isn't all that useless afterall.
 
tl;dr: - school is a place for emotionally maturing
- although it's obscured by the obsession with numbers and grades, there's academic enrichment too, under the study designs of every subject.

Edit: fixing my grammar and any typos
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 05:58:10 pm by peerbagh »
Lying in a Hammock at William Duffy's Farm in Pine Island, Minnesota
VCE 2021 - ATAR 98.85
my vce journal!

offering tutoring for English Language 3&4;)

Chocolatemilkshake

  • MOTM: JAN 21
  • Forum Obsessive
  • ***
  • Posts: 344
  • Respect: +371
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2020, 06:07:16 pm »
+11
So called modern day "education“, though imo, is the biggest obstacle for students attaining intellectual independence and autonomy, let alone creativity. I would gladly spend my time developing myself intellectually, but so much of my time is drained in school and doing useless homework and worrying about grades and worrying about the future, stressing out. Is this really what  education is?, it's pathetic. Education shouldn’t make us feel like this. In high school there is no intellectual exploration, or genuine creation, just mindless conformation to a bunch of brain numbing and draining material, and if you're very lucky, something mildly stimulating.
I certainly agree that the VCE system and high school does not suit everyone, but calling it "pathetic" I think is probably a little bit harsh.  First from a non-academic perspective...I can only speak from my own experience (I do understand that every school is different) but my school has honestly given me so much confidence, leadership skills, a community and a place where I feel like I belong. In my classes, especially in years 7-10, I've never felt like I've learnt off dot points or am learning for the sake of fulfilling a checklist. Instead we have been taught about different religions and cultures, a variety of historical events, Indigenous empowerment and their current struggles in our own country, the importance of mental health and supporting those who are struggling. Throughout the year we have many fundraisers and promote so many different positive initiatives throughout the school/local and wider community as well as have opportunities in all different areas (sport, music, arts, etc, etc). Without this education and without my school I don't think I would be as understanding of world events, compassionate for others or as confident in myself as I am today. I simply can't see how this is "pathetic." And just to be clear I'm not discounting your feelings or other students opinions towards the education system, maybe these opportunities weren't available to you and you did seriously feel that high school inhibited your freedom and creative independence, but what I am saying is there are absolutely high schools that don't do that and for many students including myself high school has been an incredible journey and an experience I am entirely grateful for. I admire you for putting your ideas out there but I do think there are flaws in your argument or perhaps a one-sided perspective going on.

From an academic perspective or regarding the VCE system itself, I agree it isn't perfect and I think most people would agree that, but then again it would be impossible to get a "perfect" system because everyone learns differently and there will always be social/economic disparities between students. I personally have discovered my passions through this system and it's really given me a direction into university and where I want to take my life. Again, not the same for everyone but still I wouldn't completely rule it out as a horrible or worthless system, especially when it's taught me so much beyond just content but persistence, commitment, etc (definitely not saying you can't learn these skills elsewhere though, but just trying to show that VCE is not just wasting your life for 2 years).

This “education” that I have undergone really isn't something that I am grateful for. Sure, people in the third world would kill for this, but why? To dedicate their hours and years to useless military styled training, depriving them of their intellectual potential?. What are they going to do with this education?, tell me, in what way can they possibly support their country with a good western "education"?. Personally, I come from a third world country, one plagued with many problems, and I truly see no way I can help my country with this “education”. I would gladly help my country and try to solve them, but this system of education is not conducive of such a pursuit. I urge you to tell me why those would want to chain themselves to this system of education?.
This part of your comment is naďve. Education is certainly one of the larger ways forward in overcoming poverty, gender inequality and more. There's a reason dictators burn books. And you're right, those in third world countries would kill for a good western "education" because spending 7 hours a day where you get to pick the subjects you want to pursue, make friends and be involved in a community is wonderful compared to poverty-stricken lives or slave labour.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 06:12:24 pm by Chocolatemilkshake »
2021-2025: BMedSci/M.D @ Monash

homeworkisapotato

  • MOTM: Aug 20
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Respect: +288
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2020, 06:39:04 pm »
+9
This “education” that I have undergone really isn't something that I am grateful for. Sure, people in the third world would kill for this, but why? To dedicate their hours and years to useless military styled training, depriving them of their intellectual potential?. What are they going to do with this education?, tell me, in what way can they possibly support their country with a good western "education"?. Personally, I come from a third world country, one plagued with many problems, and I truly see no way I can help my country with this “education”. I would gladly help my country and try to solve them, but this system of education is not conducive of such a pursuit. I urge you to tell me why those would want to chain themselves to this system of education?.
Like chocolatemilkshake said this comment is a bit naďve as when you're living a life without ownership of your body or in poverty or in hunger the opportunity to even be free is a boon itself. Freedom itself seems unattainable for many. Education is another world. I also come from a third world country and the education system in my country is so rigid the Australian schooling system would seem like jelly. And regarding your argument that you would gladly help your country to solve problems and the country's education preventing you, there are so so many people who have grown up here and are solving global issues. Take covid for example- so many researchers who have studied here in this country in our schools who are trying to save lives in the millions using the education they received here. Also, it's very unlikely anyone no matter which country they are in will be able to solve global issues during VCE. There's a reason so many high-level occupations require some form of tertiary education degree. You need the education and exposure to the real world that Australian education gives you, so you can make educated and well-informed decisions when you grow up, not just personally but occupation-wise too. How useful your education here is is dependent on you!

We need to be critical thinkers, VCE doesn't train us to be such thinkers, it trains us to be conformists. Why do you think Hitler could muster up a whole generation of genocidal Germans, or Mussolini a whole nation of fascists?. It all starts from the classroom.
You argue that VCE as a system forces you to conform but there's no reason for you not to challenge points given. Some subjects like Methods and LOTE are objective because they are formulaic subjects. However, with English or History you can challenge all you want. With your Hitler comparison, you've actually pointed out the very reason we need education. Education is required for society to progress and Hitler used it in a bad way. However, the Australian schooling system is pushing us to be positive and objective thinkers. We're exposed to so many different subjects in an objective manner so we can form our own opinions.

At the end of the day, most are going to go through this intellectual deprivation to make it to the next step, not for genuine intellectual nourishment or development. Then after this VCE, most will make it into uni, graduate with a piece of paper only to then try to desperately rent themselves to low-mid level corporations. This pretty much seems to me the reality of the majority, I mean just look.
I think it's a bit unfair to make a generalised opinion of the whole cohort. Most of us do have big dreams and that 'piece of paper' is a ticket to the next step to reaching that dream. There are so many people out there in other countries who dream of working at our 'low-mid level corporations.'

There's more learning in life than VCE and VCE is just a stepping stone to the real world :)

Edit: Just realised I sound so aggressive I'm so sorry about that!
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 06:53:20 pm by homeworkisapotato »
2020: Biology [43]
2021: Methods, Chemistry, HHD, English, Further
Selective School Entry Tips

Chocolatemilkshake

  • MOTM: JAN 21
  • Forum Obsessive
  • ***
  • Posts: 344
  • Respect: +371
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2020, 06:53:50 pm »
+8
Methods and LOTE are objective because they are formulaic subjects.
There's more learning in life than VCE and VCE is just a stepping stone to the real world :)
Definitely agree with homeworkisapotato! Just to add (sorry this is a little sidetracked) but I probably wouldn't call LOTE an objective subject (and definitely not formulaic). Learning a language has really opened up my perspective to an entire new culture as I've gained knowledge about a large range of world-wide issues  ;D There is a lot of creative freedom in LOTE subjects (probably the most out of all my subjects) to explore the topics you enjoy (after all, all you have to do it listen or read about these subjects in a different language).
2021-2025: BMedSci/M.D @ Monash

homeworkisapotato

  • MOTM: Aug 20
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Respect: +288
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2020, 07:05:33 pm »
+6
Definitely agree with homeworkisapotato! Just to add (sorry this is a little sidetracked) but I probably wouldn't call LOTE an objective subject (and definitely not formulaic). Learning a language has really opened up my perspective to an entire new culture as I've gained knowledge about a large range of world-wide issues  ;D There is a lot of creative freedom in LOTE subjects (probably the most out of all my subjects) to explore the topics you enjoy (after all, all you have to do it listen or read about these subjects in a different language).
Oh, that's so true!!! I should have specified that I was mainly referring to the theoretical remembering all the noun and verb endings and sentence structure (so sorry for sounding like I was belittling LOTE). I agree with you that there is a lot of creative freedom, so much that you can create so many types of art just by learning VCE LOTE! That perspective is very very enlightening Choco!!
2020: Biology [43]
2021: Methods, Chemistry, HHD, English, Further
Selective School Entry Tips

K888

  • VIC MVP - 2017
  • National Moderator
  • ATAR Notes Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
  • Respect: +2877
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2020, 07:59:06 pm »
+7
You say early schooling develops foundations, but outside of primary school, what foundations do you attain?. I'm failing to see any. Please, enlighten me. I have posted here because I am actually genuinely curious as to what there is to salvage from this system because, reflecting over my years in VCE and hs in general, I haven't found any. What I have found out though, is that most of the skills and content I have learned in hs could have been learned by my year 6/7 self, probably more earlier if the system was more efficient.
I mean, I certainly learnt how to express myself in English, and definitely don't think 12-13 year old me had the capacity to express what 18 year old me could (plus, at that early age you're lacking maturity and life experience - important stuff that plays into how you express yourself), and I also learnt how to challenge ideas and reason things out.
I learnt skills in maths that have been important for conducting research projects in uni, for doing calculations relevant to my profession, etc.
Revolutions - I learnt a lot about historical events that aren't so well known, and it gave me a much wider understanding of events that have shaped the world.
LOTE - learnt how to speak another language, and even though I haven't spoken it in a while now I still understand it pretty well and it lets me engage with people from around the world.
Sciences - gave me really important foundations for my degree (which is heavily science based), gave me a better understanding of the world as well.

Content has to be spread out over the years as well and paced at an appropriate level that caters to a lot of people - just because one person could work through a heap of complex stuff doesn't mean the student sitting next to them can. And there's a lot to be said about learning stuff at an appropriate age - you can't appreciate and properly understand a lot of stuff at a younger age.

Definitely agree that VCE and the schooling system in general isn't perfect, but it definitely could be a lot worse.

420/69

  • Adventurer
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Respect: -1
Re: What have you got from "education"?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2020, 08:42:57 pm »
+1
Hey peerbagh, I guess I was kinda being vague. I mean, for me, AA was probably the closest thing to critical thinking, if that. I wanted to emphasise how pathetically taught critical thinking was, through my experience at least. I think I might be conflicting critical thinking with challenging and evaluating. Would be cool though, if we could actually learn how to see through the persuasive traps of capitalism through building critical thinking skills and challenging systems of power etc at school. Sadly, that’s not gonna happen. What power would want their people at their throats?. You conform to their conventional, mainstream ideas and nothing else. Other ideas are looked down upon and not allowed to enter the spheres of political debate/discussion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qe4uL8pJuE&ab_channel=DemocracyNow%21

Chocolatemilkshake, I was kinda being vague here. I think you're assuming that they would live in the west, like physically, I didn’t assume that. I assumed the western structure of education was implemented in their country, they would go through VCE like us but still in the third world. They’d still be in poverty and I doubt that education will help any of that. I mean, looking at the first world, people are more “educated” than ever, yet the world is more messed up than it has ever been. How come education in the first world is not fixing the problems of the globe, the inequality, the terrorism and so on?. I highly doubt a western “education” would actually cure the world's problems. Go to some third world country after being adequately educated and fight against the dictatorship in power, you'll get a rifle in your mouth. Protests in my country are always brutally suppressed, what makes you think education today can fight against that?, especially when modern day history in the first world is suppressed and fabricated?. "History is written by the victors",

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjU8R8oj328&ab_channel=thejuicemedia


I wont be here anymore. I dont think this is going to go anywhere. Thanks to everyone responding though.