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July 15, 2024, 09:09:53 pm

Author Topic: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE  (Read 11027 times)  Share 

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Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« on: January 01, 2010, 11:51:33 pm »
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How can it NOT be unfair having a person born in Australia, the son of 2 German migrants and thus fluent in both German and English, study German as one of their VCE subjects? Discuss.

stonecold

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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2010, 11:55:36 pm »
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IMO that is like saying it is unfair that someone studies specialist maths because their parents are both nuclear physicists.
They are just lucky, there is nothing you can do.  The only unfair part of the system is scaling above 50.  It needs to be scrapped.
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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2010, 11:58:24 pm »
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I was going to mention that, people in this fortunate situation also get extra marks on their study score.

TrueTears

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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2010, 12:02:38 am »
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Life's not fair, VCE is not fair.
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brightsky

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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2010, 12:05:59 am »
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That is true. Life's unfair, I guess. And stonecold raised a very good point, that is just like saying you are good at physics or something just because your parents happen to be Albert Einstein. Its not the fact that your parents are smart that automatically makes you smart, its the fact that they have a good learning environment and they are exposed to those sorts of things more. They put in the hardwork as well. The only disadvantage is that you won't be able to have as much exposure as people in that or likewise situations.

But I personally don't solely agree with the fact that scaling over 50 is unfair. VCAA do it by normal distribution. If it is an extremely hard subject, such as Latin, it is only fair if they give that much more advantage to that of a 50 in further maths (not saying this is a easy subject but it is definitely less difficult than that of Latin - I know this is debatable, but this is believed by a vast majority of public discourse). But I understand the fact that some subjects are not offered at certain schools, and some people get that advantage because they are good at languages, etc. etc., but to propose as system that is 100% fair to everyone is just impossible. If we drag Latin's scaling from 55 to 50, there would be opposing sentiments. If we leave it there, similarly, other would disagree.
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IntoTheNewWorld

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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2010, 12:07:37 am »
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It is unfair, and I believe there should be a distinction made. Unfortunately there generally aren't enough students doing LOTE to make this distinction though - the cohort would be made too small. I believe VCAA is considering making separate streams based on your heritage for some Asian languages though, which would combat this.

But for languages such as German, where the number of background speakers is insignificant, it's still very possible for students with no background in the language to score well. It is only in subjects dominated by background speakers (Chinese, Vietnamese) where it would be very, very, very difficult to score well.

The only unfair part of the system is scaling above 50.

an incentive isn't an incentive if it's fair.

...I may be slightly biased
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 12:10:57 am by SmRandmAzn »

GerrySly

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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2010, 12:11:37 am »
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How can it NOT be unfair having a person born in Australia, the son of 2 German migrants and thus fluent in both German and English, study German as one of their VCE subjects? Discuss.
As everyone has said, it's a lucky situation to be in. Most of the asian languages are dominated by asians in this situation.

Sucks to be me though, I am the son of German migrants and I didn't get tought German, they wanted to integrate into society so they scrapped their heritage and completely immersed themselves.
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brightsky

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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2010, 12:15:46 am »
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Yes, I agree that it would be a big disadvantage to non-background speakers, but the point stonecold raised must be reiterated. Is that to say that we should stream students with a background of nuclear scientists in one section, or a background of geographers in one. You're forgetting that background students also have that kind of disadvantage when doing English. If one is doing Chinese SL, they will be doing some sort of English subject that all English-speaking folks do. Should we streamline this as well? I know that there are ESL courses, but the category doesn't include people who grew up here with a separate language background, just like Chinese SL is vs. Chinese FL. Even the distinction between SLA is huge!

Quote

Sucks to be me though, I am the son of German migrants and I didn't get tought German, they wanted to integrate into society so they scrapped their heritage and completely immersed themselves.

Another good point. Not all sons and daughters of Australian Born- (insert language here), necessarily have that advantage. Its all based on exposure. Hence, why it is really difficult to stream subjects while maintain fairness.

EZ Edit: Fixed double post.  =)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 01:35:24 am by EvangelionZeta »
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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2010, 12:26:06 am »
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"I believe VCAA is considering making separate streams based on your heritage for some Asian languages though, which would combat this."

so, like chinese for non-asians?
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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2010, 12:30:02 am »
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I believe VCAA is considering making separate streams based on your heritage for some Asian languages though, which would combat this.

[Please note this post in the way its intended im not trying to be racist or anything.]
I believe that is a good idea, to an extent. Of course, children of migrants who speak a particular language will be much better at that language than the average joe, it just makes sense. I believe this might discourage people from studying a language they otherwise wouldn't of studied.


[Theyve cleaned this up majorly since i left, so that you can pick a language after only doing 1 year of it.]For example, at my school Yr 7 & 8 we did Chinese for 1 semester and Italian for the other. In year 9 we got to pick between them and study only one for a full year. For year 10 we got a choice between a language or economics, i chose economics. Partially because of this reason, i knew it would be futile to continue it in VCE (me being a white guy, who had never spoken mandarin before) my chinese teacher was on my back about it to, because i actually did pretty decently, i actually felt kind of bad telling him why i chose economics.

Ignoring the fact i probably wouldnt of done VCE chinese anyway but i think this is a very good point.

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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2010, 12:37:19 am »
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"I believe VCAA is considering making separate streams based on your heritage for some Asian languages though, which would combat this."

so, like chinese for non-asians?

there aren't too many details yet, but I was reading on the VCAA site a paper on a proposed "heritage" level of LOTE, where you can be born here buy have a Chinese family background. I'm not sure how this would be enforced, but I do think it would be a good idea. Currently, a non Chinese person doing Chinese sl at vce level would get destroyed (heck, it's even difficult for Chinese people born here to get 40+)

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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2010, 12:38:40 am »
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I believe VCAA is considering making separate streams based on your heritage for some Asian languages though, which would combat this.

[Please note this post in the way its intended im not trying to be racist or anything.]
I believe that is a good idea, to an extent. Of course, children of migrants who speak a particular language will be much better at that language than the average joe, it just makes sense. I believe this might discourage people from studying a language they otherwise wouldn't of studied.


[Theyve cleaned this up majorly since i left, so that you can pick a language after only doing 1 year of it.]For example, at my school Yr 7 & 8 we did Chinese for 1 semester and Italian for the other. In year 9 we got to pick between them and study only one for a full year. For year 10 we got a choice between a language or economics, i chose economics. Partially because of this reason, i knew it would be futile to continue it in VCE (me being a white guy, who had never spoken mandarin before) my chinese teacher was on my back about it to, because i actually did pretty decently, i actually felt kind of bad telling him why i chose economics.

Ignoring the fact i probably wouldnt of done VCE chinese anyway but i think this is a very good point.

lol dw i would have loved to do VCE chinese but its crazy for a white guy to go up against a cohort full of ethnic chinese  (particulary as VCE just ranks everyone agains eachother :P )
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amirite?

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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2010, 01:11:58 am »
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Sucks to be me though, I am the son of German migrants and I didn't get tought German, they wanted to integrate into society so they scrapped their heritage and completely immersed themselves.

Isnt it ironic that you chose to study French too. xD


Brightsky - Your points arent wrong, they too are unfair, but at the same time they arent relevant. The person in my hypothetical, and the people I am highlighting, are the people who speak English and German/x each as good as the other.
Also its "hence" or "why" never both. Call me petulant but I see this mistake too often, when teachers say it I shit bricks, and I wont stand by and watch it spread. :P

TrueTears - its good to have both sides of the argument...
Its easy to say its unfair and that life is unfair but that doesnt make it acceptable.

kenhung123

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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2010, 02:34:54 am »
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Not sure if you guys already know but in HSC. If you speak the LOTE at home thats another subject. They still have first and second language LOTE's with that added.

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Re: Second Generation Australians doing LOTE
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2010, 02:36:58 am »
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Not sure if you guys already know but in HSC. If you speak the LOTE at home thats another subject. They still have first and second language LOTE's with that added.

i think there is also a stream for if u havent studied it proir to year 11 or something
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