Female traffic lights

[zhen]

Interesting. Because at my sister's workplace, they're actually implementing a thing which negates what you say about maternal leave being a problem behind how an employer should choose to select their employees. It's called a "paternal leave", which allows men who have family to take time off to tend to their family life. I really hope this would be a thing behind all workplaces, because it's already making its way through with the bigger companies. The philosophy behind is to provide employees with a level of flexibility for men, just as how women have maternal leave. So yeah, very interesting that you should point that out.

That said, if this becomes something as common as how we have maternal leave -- that sort of way of thinking will have less than 'legitimate' ground than what it appears in the way you put it.

Yea, basically if men end up looking after children as much as women, there would be no reason for the gender gap to exist, because it would mean that on average both genders would have the same amount of experience and working hours.

There has been a lot of research done examining the contribution of social factors, such as motherhood, to the pay gap and when you (attempt to) account for them, there's still a difference. Smart people have wondered about this before - literally the first result for "wage gap adjusted social factors" on google scholar says

I think that the main reason why feminist causes focus on the areas in which women's rights are lacking is that there are simply more systematic discriminatory practices that disadvantage women!

One of them is attitudes, which is why the traffic lights act as a stimulus to provoke discussion. It's also interesting to reflect on why it's necessary to redirect a discussion about feminism to the problems men face.

It's interesting that your link suggests that an unexplained gender gap still exists, even when taking into account the factors I mentioned. Honestly, I find it illogical that an employer would discriminate between males and females, as it doesn't really benefit them financially. Maybe employers are overcompensating for the inconveniences I pointed out in my prior post. But I honestly don't think that employers are actively trying to discriminate against women, as it wouldn't benefit them. Also, the reason why I started talking about the problems men face is because I feel like feminism and society in general are ignoring the problems of men. I feel like the problems women face are slightly more important than those men face, but men also have urgent problems such as having an increased punishment for committing the same crimes as women, which is arguably as important as the wage gap problem. I feel like feminism just zooms in on the problems of women and makes it so that the men are ignored. I feel like it's necessary to mention the problems of men because they aren't publicised as much and the feminist movement right now just portrays women as victims and the idea of men as victims is rare. For example, until last year I was completely unaware that men are also subject to domestic violence.

[elysepopplewell]

Yea, basically if men end up looking after children as much as women, there would be no reason for the gender gap to exist, because it would mean that on average both genders would have the same amount of experience and working hours.
It's interesting that your link suggests that an unexplained gender gap still exists, even when taking into account the factors I mentioned. Honestly, I find it illogical that an employer would discriminate between males and females, as it doesn't really benefit them financially. Maybe employers are overcompensating for the inconveniences I pointed out in my prior post. But I honestly don't think that employers are actively trying to discriminate against women, as it wouldn't benefit them. Also, the reason why I started talking about the problems men face is because I feel like feminism and society in general are ignoring the problems of men. I feel like the problems women face are slightly more important than those men face, but men also have urgent problems such as having an increased punishment for committing the same crimes as women, which is arguably as important as the wage gap problem. I feel like feminism just zooms in on the problems of women and makes it so that the men are ignored. I feel like it's necessary to mention the problems of men because they aren't publicised as much and the feminist movement right now just portrays women as victims and the idea of men as victims is rare. For example, until last year I was completely unaware that men are also subject to domestic violence.

So much of the cycle of men hiring men isn't a conscious decision to leave women out. Unconscious bias exists in promotional and hiring practices. Although, I have no doubt there are many situations where men actively decide to not hire women purely because they are a woman - and often it has nothing to do with the business but just the personal prejudice of the person hiring/promoting/demoting.

Regarding the gender gap problem, I think this is caused by the nature of gender roles in society. If I were an employer and in a theoretical example I had a male and a female competing for the same job with the exact same qualifications, I would choose the male. But, this doesn't mean that I'm sexist. I would do this because females are much more likely to take maternity leave and are likely to work less hours, because women generally care for the children. This would be an inconvenience to companies as they lose some of their workforce.

In this hypothetical situation you mightn't be sexist but you are discriminatory on the basis of gender. This isn't just a harmless "what's better for the business" it's a really toxic cycle for women to be caught in right from the early stages of their career - getting a leg up into an industry is impossible when your employer is looking at your potential fertility over everything else. Personally, this is a really frustrating idea for me that I could work incredibly hard to present a professional self and it'll be disregarded because I have a womb - that's why discrimination on the basis of gender is illegal.

Also, because of this, women are more likely to have worked for less time and have less experience than their male counterparts because they spend more time looking after children. So whilst the men further their careers and get pay rises, women are stuck looking after their children and halting their career for their family. I know that this is unfair, but in a capitalistic society where money is important, this is what I'd do to earn more money. So, basically since women are more likely to look after children, because of the societal stereotypes placed on women, they end up getting a lower wage on average. This is unfair and should be changed, but it's just what happens when society is based around money.

I agree...I follow Susan Carland around online a lot and see that she's done extensive research (possibly her phd on it?) about women doing unpaid work a lot more than men. Even in house holds where women and men do equal paid work hours, the woman is likely to do the most house work/garden work/child caring in the overwhelming majority of situations. This is to be challenged. I know my sister resents feminism because she hates the idea that she feels pressured to work in her job and care for her children while her husband only works and doesn't feel the same pressure to do the child-caring. I tell her all the time that the aim of feminism isn't at all to exhaust her, but feminism is actively challenging who does the child caring - the idea of challenging the roles is actually trying to help her. And with time, you can't doubt that we are progressing! 50 years ago you'd hardly see men doing to public-dad thing, changing nappies, making the lunches, etc. But that's all changing with time and it's seen far more positive for men to be able to engage in fathering in a way that's beyond providing financially for the family, which is great for men, women, and children alike!