ATAR/Scaling Questions

[bun00]

I think the conflict you are having here exemplifies exactly why it just doesn't make sense to neglect any HSC subjects. At the end of the day you just don't know what will happen in the other exams, and having Mathematics as a backup could come in handy.

In my opinion, just work really hard on everything, try to bring 2U up as much as you can bring it up working a sensible amount. Even numbers aside, that way you can say you literally gave everything your best effort

hokey! thanks stacks for that knew i'd find some advice on here

[~BK~]

how differently scaled are mathematics and maths general 2??
i've heard they're really similar now which is annoying those in gen 2 are getting waaay better marks than us in mathematics!!?  
thanks

also another question in regard to scaling.....
how different is advanced eng to standard?? i started do it thinking it might push up my atar, but now i srsly wonder!!!

Mod Edit: Post merge

[jamonwindeyer]

how differently scaled are mathematics and maths general 2??
i've heard they're really similar now which is annoying those in gen 2 are getting waaay better marks than us in mathematics!!?  
thanks

Mathematics scales a fair bit better than General 2 most of the time - It won't account for huge differences in marks but scaling definitely favours 2U

also another question in regard to scaling.....
how different is advanced eng to standard?? i started do it thinking it might push up my atar, but now i srsly wonder!!!

Advanced scales significantly better than Standard in most circumstances, and you are far more likely to get a high mark in Advanced (only 1% of students get a Band 6 in Standard, and no one has ever gotten 99.95 doing Standard English)

Don't stress about this stuff too much! You can't change your subjects, so focus on smashing the courses you are doing rather than contemplating hypotheticals!

PS - This document has the actual scaling data if you like!

[~BK~]

thanks heaps for the encouragement jamon (as always!!)
i'm not too worried cos i like all the subjects i do anyway and wouldn't change just to get better marks  
the whole atar/scaling/ranking thing is v confusing tho!!

[jamonwindeyer]

thanks heaps for the encouragement jamon (as always!!)
i'm not too worried cos i like all the subjects i do anyway and wouldn't change just to get better marks  
the whole atar/scaling/ranking thing is v confusing tho!!

It is definitely confusing! But, at the core of it all, it is fair (as close to perfectly fair as you can get, at least) - So as hard as it is, try and trust NESA to do right by you, that's what the system is designed to do

[dancing phalanges]

Hey Jamon,
It's been around 9 months or so since I dropped gennie maths but I've always wondered if I would have gone better atar wise if i kept it. I don't regret my decision as I love french and it's pretty much my favourite subject but if i kept both subjects which would scale better?
French Continuers Mark 81 Rank 1 vs General Maths Mark 92 Rank 6 or so...
Thanks (I did this last year with our academic person at school and the atar difference was around 0.5-1)

[jamonwindeyer]

Hey Jamon,
It's been around 9 months or so since I dropped gennie maths but I've always wondered if I would have gone better atar wise if i kept it. I don't regret my decision as I love french and it's pretty much my favourite subject but if i kept both subjects which would scale better?
French Continuers Mark 81 Rank 1 vs General Maths Mark 92 Rank 6 or so...
Thanks (I did this last year with our academic person at school and the atar difference was around 0.5-1)

Hey! So obviously not worth putting much energy into a decision that you made a year ago, buuut:

- French Continuers scales better than General Math (at least, it did last year) in that Band 5 range where you currently sit.
- Even so, scaling will not compensate for a difference of 10 marks, so if your marks there are indicative of final performance, General Math would be worth more. But not because of scaling, because your mark is higher

Impact on your ATAR would have been pretty slim in either direction, so if you love French it was definitely a good call

[dancing phalanges]

Hey! So obviously not worth putting much energy into a decision that you made a year ago, buuut:

- French Continuers scales better than General Math (at least, it did last year) in that Band 5 range where you currently sit.
- Even so, scaling will not compensate for a difference of 10 marks, so if your marks there are indicative of final performance, General Math would be worth more. But not because of scaling, because your mark is higher

Impact on your ATAR would have been pretty slim in either direction, so if you love French it was definitely a good call

Thanks Jamon! Yeah I mean I can toss and turn on it but it also would have meant studying for Maths and doing Maths on the day of my Modern trial too so all worked out well!

[jamonwindeyer]

Thanks Jamon! Yeah I mean I can toss and turn on it but it also would have meant studying for Maths and doing Maths on the day of my Modern trial too so all worked out well!

Definitely a good call - Can't believe they did that double! Poor form NESA

[diesxel]

Hello,

so basically my internal marks are looking good for all my subjects (90s) except for biology which I despise and is marked very harshly at my school. I scraped an 80 for my trials, and my overall internal mark is 82.75 right now. Do I still have a chance of getting a solid band 6 in HSC? I don't want biology to be the reason my ATAR is pulled down, I only do 10 units so biology is definitely going to count.

Honestly regret taking biology so much, I don't know what I was thinking as an english/humanities student!!!

[Natasha.97]

Hello,

so basically my internal marks are looking good for all my subjects (90s) except for biology which I despise and is marked very harshly at my school. I scraped an 80 for my trials, and my overall internal mark is 82.75 right now. Do I still have a chance of getting a solid band 6 in HSC? I don't want biology to be the reason my ATAR is pulled down, I only do 10 units so biology is definitely going to count.

Honestly regret taking biology so much, I don't know what I was thinking as an english/humanities student!!!

Hi!

This post goes into more detail, but essentially, internal marks aren't an indicator of what band you'll get. It depends on how well your cohort performs in comparison to other schools (and as you've said biology is marked very harshly, your cohorts' marks will be moderated up).

Hope this helps

[_____]

I've tried reading the UAC document (nearly died of boredom) and then Jamon's guide (much better) but I still don't entirely understand how the process works. So I've got a few dumb questions:

1. Is the "HSC mark" you put into an ATAR calculator scaled down based on the other candidates performance in other subjects? So if I get 98% in the IPT exam (first in the class) does this get scaled back to like 90-93 because IPT is easy or does my HSC mark stay at 98%?

2. How are state ranks calculated? Are they basically your final exam mark after it has been reallocated based on your internal rank? What happens if there's a tie?

3. Are there any exceptions to the reallocation of external marks based on internal rank? Say I get 85% in the final business studies exam as first in the class but whoever is number two somehow gets 98%. Do I still get his mark? If it's a state top 10, do I get the state rank? I feel like I'm misunderstanding how internal ranks play into this.

[jamonwindeyer]

I've tried reading the UAC document (nearly died of boredom) and then Jamon's guide (much better) but I still don't entirely understand how the process works. So I've got a few dumb questions:

No dumb questions my friend

1. Is the "HSC mark" you put into an ATAR calculator scaled down based on the other candidates performance in other subjects? So if I get 98% in the IPT exam (first in the class) does this get scaled back to like 90-93 because IPT is easy or does my HSC mark stay at 98%?

So you score 98 in the exam after alignment. Since you are 1st, this is also your internal mark, so your HSC Mark averages to 98. This is what appears on your credentials. The scaling of the mark by UAC for calculation of your ATAR is done after the fact and purely for the purposes of calculating the ATAR, you never see the scaled number

2. How are state ranks calculated? Are they basically your final exam mark after it has been reallocated based on your internal rank? What happens if there's a tie?

It goes off your final HSC mark, the average of internal moderated and external aligned. If there is a tie (quoted from NESA):

If students are equal on the highest HSC marks in a course, then the following process is used to determine the recipient(s):

- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark after alignment to performance bands, each to one decimal place
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark before alignment to performance bands, each to two decimal places
- if an extension course, use the marks awarded for other courses in the subject area.

3. Are there any exceptions to the reallocation of external marks based on internal rank? Say I get 85% in the final business studies exam as first in the class but whoever is number two somehow gets 98%. Do I still get his mark? If it's a state top 10, do I get the state rank? I feel like I'm misunderstanding how internal ranks play into this.

There are limitations, but I believe the limitations are on the low end. So you should get the 98 as your internal moderated mark, which would be averaged with your aligned exam mark of 85. HSC Mark for that course would be (98+85)/2=92. Chances are that mark wouldn't give you a state rank, even though the exam mark was 98, the final HSC mark would be 92 for you and likely only slightly higher for the 98 scorer - Depends on the class

[_____]

No dumb questions my friend

So you score 98 in the exam after alignment. Since you are 1st, this is also your internal mark, so your HSC Mark averages to 98. This is what appears on your credentials. The scaling of the mark by UAC for calculation of your ATAR is done after the fact and purely for the purposes of calculating the ATAR, you never see the scaled number

It goes off your final HSC mark, the average of internal moderated and external aligned. If there is a tie (quoted from NESA):

If students are equal on the highest HSC marks in a course, then the following process is used to determine the recipient(s):

- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark after alignment to performance bands, each to one decimal place
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark before alignment to performance bands, each to two decimal places
- if an extension course, use the marks awarded for other courses in the subject area.

There are limitations, but I believe the limitations are on the low end. So you should get the 98 as your internal moderated mark, which would be averaged with your aligned exam mark of 85. HSC Mark for that course would be (98+85)/2=92. Chances are that mark wouldn't give you a state rank, even though the exam mark was 98, the final HSC mark would be 92 for you and likely only slightly higher for the 98 scorer - Depends on the class

Ahh that helps a lot.

So that average of internal/external I've heard being talked about is actually an average of your moderated internal (based on the performance of the cohort) and the aligned external. This then becomes the HSC mark, which is then changed again (scaled) for ATAR calculation based on the difficulty of the course. That makes sense.(if I got it about right lol).

Thanks for clearing that up.

[jamonwindeyer]

Yep, you got it - Glad I could help!