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Author Topic: WHERE ART THOU CLASSICS PEOPLE  (Read 5378 times)  Share 

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chenchenpizza

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WHERE ART THOU CLASSICS PEOPLE
« on: March 06, 2016, 01:57:50 pm »
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Currently doing Iliad Book I and III, would love it if someone wants to discuss it with moi!

MightyBeh

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Re: WHERE ART THOU CLASSICS PEOPLE
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2016, 02:34:34 pm »
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Me too! I actually think the whole Iliad situation is hilarious ::)
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michael leahcim

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Re: WHERE ART THOU CLASSICS PEOPLE
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2016, 01:42:01 pm »
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Well since, no one is replying to this thread I'll go ahead and lead on with some stuff I got on the Iliad:

uhh Haven't read book III yet (pending this week somewhere), but from what I've gathered from Book I is that there are three huge themes going on: Achilles' rage (which is the obvious one but I reckon it's important as it's pivotal in understanding the conflict - in war and the quarrel of power, which transcends mortals to the gods to the bigger picture "the will of Zeus" - fate, maybe, idk how to interpret it (?)), the conflict of power, and interests of honour and what it means to be a mortal rather than the immortal gods, who intervene and change the fortunes of man as quickly as Apollo does - when he sends down a plague sweeping death across the Achaean army.

Agamemnon's leadership as a king is called into question: Agamemnon's miscommunication with Chryses, the priest of Apollo shows three things:
- his power as a King of the Achaeans => his men have no power over his authority. When they assented for Agamemnon to take the ransom, he refused to do this, which asserts his authority as the 'final say' to the interests of his men.
- his obsession with honour. Like Achilles they are defined by their honour, which Homer emphasises as both what incurs the theme - RAGE and what causes the struggle between men ---> the bigger picture of WAR and its inevitability, which Homer's listeners would relate to. Honour chiefly belongs only to the mortals; gods cannot experience this, as they cannot be dishonoured in death, as they cannot die, and that it can only be won in the present in battle, which is only really temporary => that's why the spoils of war means so much to Achilles, and how Agamemnon is so quick to judge Chryses' offer as a slight to his honour rather than an indirect peace-making with the god Apollo.
- his lack of leadership qualities; he is more worried about his personal desires and his pride of honour that he does not decide in the interest of benefitting his community. His actions are destructive, and as exemplified in spurning Chryses that he would disgrace his daughter, Chryseis, to a life as a concubine working the loom -- he ultimately brings about a plague, which he has to then sacrifice bulls to appease the god Apollo who he has intrinsically disrespected by hurling abuse to his priest, Chryses.

However, I think it's also important to note, Achilles' vulnerability which he expresses after the quarrel: when Briseis was taken from him, it's clear that it's Agamemnon who he is enraged by. He doesn't lash out against the men who take his concubine away but instead even reminders of Agamemnon's name inspires some tension, i think in the dialogue. It is Agamemnon's incompetency as a leader that causes Achilles to quarrel with him, and as the two try to assert their power against one another to protect their honour, Achilles is the one that loses, which calls to question the "will of Zeus" like wtf is it?. Ultimately, Achilles is powerless, and though initially as Athena had intervened when he had drawn his sword against Agamemnon, the promise of a prize three times the one he will lose is forgotten as, along with Briseis, his honour was taken from him, and he cannot get it back => power of kingship and how it is often abused.

Sympathy is drawn, by Homer, from this image of a brilliant warrior who cannot stoically deal with this mistreatment. It's a big transition i think, as it develops Achilles as a character, and the immense loss of losing that honour which had been stripped from him by the outcome of a quarrel meaningless to the grander scale of their war. Yet, the fact that it is Achilles and by extension the Myrmidons who will withdraw from the war as a result of this quarrel, there is a great loss which comes from the quarrel and its triviality.

AND another thing I also found to be interesting is Achilles turns to his mother, Thetis. There's a bit of background story behind this, and Zeus obliges to side with the Trojans until Agamemnon is forced to plead with Achilles (this doesn't happen instead Patroclus dies and then his anger is redirected at Hector. Hector dies, then Achilles dies).

A bit of a sense of foreboding of his early death is also made quite explicit by Thetis. But what I found interesting, and I read this in the examiner's report, is the cruel irony in Thetis' comforting words. Unlike Achilles, she is an immortal. So, when she says "we must share it all" to extract Achilles' lengthy recap of everything (an oral tool to remind his audience of what has happened), dishonouring cannot be felt by an immortal, which Achilles feels as he knows he's fated to die young. Thetis cannot 'share' this experience, yet she says it to comfort him.

oo and also Nestor's speech is also a really good one, I'll let you lead and continue on with the discussion ;)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 02:37:26 pm by michael leahcim »

michael leahcim

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Re: WHERE ART THOU CLASSICS PEOPLE
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2016, 01:46:15 pm »
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ALSO, to add -- I'm doing The Aeneid Book II, so like if you guys happen to be doing the Aeneid, don't be afraid to PM me if you want some discussion going on :P
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 02:25:11 pm by michael leahcim »

michael leahcim

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Re: WHERE ART THOU CLASSICS PEOPLE
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2016, 01:51:37 pm »
+1
Forgot to say, although Achilles dies and Agamemnon lives on, it is fated that Agamemnon will die a pitiful death in his house, by his wife, stripped from having dignity in his own bathtub. Homer's audience are familiar with this story, thus there is a sense of foreboding from their quarrel as Achilles comments on Agamemnon's inability to look beyond and pass what the gods have given him, his kingship and power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tMHjEIf4c4 <= You can even say that Agamemnon's wife, Clytemnestra lives on as an embodiment of one of these people in Chicago => influence of Homer => socio-historical context? => brownie points

Moreover with the "will of Zeus" or the fates, there's an intrinsic thing at the end when we are given a glimpse to the divine world. It reminds us that the universe, which Homer's audience is familiar with, was largely unplanned. Thus by setting the conflict against a larger backdrop of war and then the gods, the mortals are essentially just a part of the universe and weren't the centre of everything, thereby diminishing the quarrel as a conflict that despite its significance in destroying a man's meaning of life, it is futile the condition which man must struggle to retain even an ounce of honour, even when they sacrifice a life of comfortable pleasure, the way of life is harsh and poopy. And this is what the Iliad, to me, is trying to get at.

significance => socio-historical context?

do i get brownie points?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 02:29:30 pm by michael leahcim »

MightyBeh

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Re: WHERE ART THOU CLASSICS PEOPLE
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2016, 05:37:46 pm »
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"the will of Zeus" - fate, maybe, idk how to interpret it (?))
Yeah I picked up on that but I wasn't sure how to phrase the idea. I've been somewhat vaguely calling it 'the power of the Gods' and then going on to explain that the Gods, too, have a hierarchical system of leadership and Zeus is top dog. I think it's interesting to draw a parallel between the whole 'Zeus' word is final' thing and how Agamemnon is the same with his armies. It's a bit of a minor point of characterization, but Agamemnon acts like he really is Zeus, which I suppose is Hubris. Tangentially, Even though it was a fifth century (or so) idea that man is the measure and the kind of independence the Athenians later show is far more developed than the Archaens in the Iliad, I think this kind of 'do the Gods control everything we do or are we free' idea is pretty prevalent throughout (Greek) History.

the bigger picture of WAR and its inevitability, which Homer's listeners would relate to. Honour chiefly belongs only to the mortals; gods cannot experience this, as they cannot be dishonoured in death, as they cannot die, and that it can only be won in the present in battle, which is only really temporary => that's why the spoils of war means so much to Achilles, and how Agamemnon is so quick to judge Chryses' offer as a slight to his honour rather than an indirect peace-making with the god Apollo.
This is good, I hadn't really thought of it like that. To further on that, I think it's pretty important to note that it was lust (love? probs not) over Helen that started the war, in combination with Menelaus' hurt honour at having her taken away. It shows that love and war are two sides of the same coin so to speak - opposite but intrinsically linked. The whole 'love and war' thing is a lot more prominent in book III - Paris is symbolic of this lust while he doesn't care at all for the war - he's not really upset that he lost against Menelaus, he's upset that Helen's dissing him about it. Then without much of a pause he goes and bangs Helen in a really fancy bed or something. In contrast, there's Menelaus (symbolic of war - "the lion", "like a wild beast", "battle-hungry" - also he's a Spartan) who's less interested in Helen herself and more interested in what she represents - his lost honour, a great prize (I've heard she's pretty attractive) and the suffering of his people. Taking Helen back shows everyone that he should be respected (eg. "guys don't take my things or I'll go to war with you for 10 years and destroy you in single combat k ty") and that he's a worthy king (and kings are pretty central to a lot of the values represented in the Iliad).

A bit of a sense of foreboding of his early death is also made quite explicit by Thetis. But what I found interesting, and I read this in the examiner's report, is the cruel irony in Thetis' comforting words. Unlike Achilles, she is an immortal. So, when she says "we must share it all" to extract Achilles' lengthy recap of everything (an oral tool to remind his audience of what has happened), dishonouring cannot be felt by an immortal, which Achilles feels as he knows he's fated to die young. Thetis cannot 'share' this experience, yet she says it to comfort him.
I thought her devastation at her sons' mistreatment was pretty endearing. Like you said - she's immortal so she can't really understand, but she tries anyway to do the best by her son. I think that it's also pretty interesting how powerfully she's represented - obviously she's a women and her power is to persuade the man, considerably less than the female Olympians, but given that she's not an Olympian it's pretty impressive that she persuaded Zeus so easily.

It reminds us that the universe, which Homer's audience is familiar with, was largely unplanned.
Maybe I missed something but I'm not exactly sure what you mean here? I mean I agree with you (was it Hesiod's Cosmogony that talked about the Gods' various attempts at creating civilizations? I remember reading that the Classical iteration of man was like the fifth try or something) but I'm not so confident with your reasoning.

Thus by setting the conflict against a larger backdrop of war and then the gods, the mortals are essentially just a part of the universe and weren't the centre of everything, thereby diminishing the quarrel as a conflict that despite its significance in destroying a man's meaning of life, it is futile the condition which man must struggle to retain even an ounce of honour, even when they sacrifice a life of comfortable pleasure, the way of life is harsh and poopy. And this is what the Iliad, to me, is trying to get at.
I kind of disagree with you there. I think having the Gods using the Greeks as a tool to solve their disputes stresses the importance of their lives. Especially those who have direct contact with the Gods and therefore have a significant impact on the tidings of war; like Achilles and Chryses. Without them deciding to employ the Gods' help in their personal disagreements, the war would have likely had a different outcome. I think the Iliad is less of a clear 'this is what it's like' and more of an exploration into the nature of the Gods, who were for the most part pretty fickle and confusing in their behaviour.

Not doing the Aeneid, unfortunately. :(
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michael leahcim

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Re: WHERE ART THOU CLASSICS PEOPLE
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2016, 08:40:19 pm »
+1
To further on that, I think it's pretty important to note that it was lust (love? probs not) over Helen that started the war, in combination with Menelaus' hurt honour at having her taken away. It shows that love and war are two sides of the same coin so to speak - opposite but intrinsically linked. The whole 'love and war' thing is a lot more prominent in book III - Paris is symbolic of this lust while he doesn't care at all for the war - he's not really upset that he lost against Menelaus, he's upset that Helen's dissing him about it. Then without much of a pause he goes and bangs Helen in a really fancy bed or something. In contrast, there's Menelaus (symbolic of war - "the lion", "like a wild beast", "battle-hungry" - also he's a Spartan) who's less interested in Helen herself and more interested in what she represents - his lost honour, a great prize (I've heard she's pretty attractive) and the suffering of his people. Taking Helen back shows everyone that he should be respected (eg. "guys don't take my things or I'll go to war with you for 10 years and destroy you in single combat k ty") and that he's a worthy king (and kings are pretty central to a lot of the values represented in the Iliad).

I think you might be thinking of beauty, which is in part, a manifestation of love (weirdly enough. let's be honest, we all objectify because we're horrible things). From reading the Iliad, I don't even think Homer even considers love as a thing, but rather that infatuation is like a hidden 'evil' and is often portrayed as being deceitful and highly destructive as it is manifested in the concubines of Achilles and Agamemnon, and also Helen, who in the widely accepted account would even say that it was caused by the goddess, Aphrodite, who made Helen fall in love with Paris. This means that rather than as freewill, gods manipulate the mortals' ability to blind themselves to this thing called 'love' to fulfil their own cause. Love does not exist as a fulfilling thing but I think it takes on a deceptive persona of hidden and often destructive agendas, in this case Helen represents war.

Unfortunately, haven't read Book III yet, so my opinion of it isn't as refined, but if I can remember what I read last year, the way that Paris is described in the Iliad is that he's weak and unable to bear the brunt of war. He's feminine and all he has is his beauty. Like Helen, Homer assimilates them with beauty, and with it, they present an immense danger to society: the old men say this behind King Priam commenting on Helen's beauty as a danger to society, and I think it does deserve some mention. Like war, it is beauty that apprehends the men, and it is as equally destructive as we see in the Trojan War.

Women in the Iliad are hostages to the men because of their feminine beauty. Paris' unwillingness to go into battle and to die by the hands of Menelaus, despite having told his brother (i will go into battle yo, don't sweat it if it means to end this all, ya), he does not deliver. Unlike his brother, Paris is very willing to indulge in a comfortable life of pleasure, and with it he doesn't care about what everyone else thinks, including the Achaean army, who thinks he's a bit of a wimp, which is a huuuggee thing because Paris is the f**king opponent's son. You can then add the parallels of this behvaiour with the heroic code and how the heroic code relies on the opinions of others to preserve that honour you gain from battle. You live through what everyone thinks of you, yet Paris neglects this. He's like the antagonist to honour. He dishonours his family by running away from Menelaus, he brings home Menelaus' wife, Helen, he brings home angry people at his doorstep, he brings home war, and when given the opportunity to end it once and for all, he runs away from battle mid-way (*gasp) because he doesn't want to die (huge no-no). This is a huge insult to everyone who is a soldier, who are all so willing to sacrifice a long life for honour in the battlefield and then, there's Paris - a total wimp. He's the epitome of disgrace in the Iliad, who doesn't even comprehend war and what it means to be a 'man'; in Homer's time, of course. tbh totally not biased.

I thought her devastation at her sons' mistreatment was pretty endearing. Like you said - she's immortal so she can't really understand, but she tries anyway to do the best by her son. I think that it's also pretty interesting how powerfully she's represented - obviously she's a women and her power is to persuade the man, considerably less than the female Olympians, but given that she's not an Olympian it's pretty impressive that she persuaded Zeus so easily.

Ahh so I'm guessing you don't know the reason why? BACK STORY: Once upon a time Thetis infatuated BOTH Zeus and Poseidon. Poseidon wanted to marry her because of how beautiful she was and Zeus also fell in love with her because of that beauty. They clashed and out of interest they settled it by seeking the advice of Themis, the goddess of justice and law. With her advice it went down something like this: "yo dawg, i know what im gonna tell you, you aint wanna hear but yo listen. her son will be stronger than his father, so yo, you might wanna scoodlypoop her with a mortal man instead. "

Zeus, being the wingman he is, decides to wed her with a mortal Peleus, who would be Achilles' father. Peleus has a cool history and you might wanna read about him but Ill let you fill in the gap there. But in this marriage, Thetis felt cheated as she was marrying someone lower than herself, a mortal. In other words, Zeus owes her from that, and by extension he cannot let Achilles' favour be left unheard because he is the result of Zeus' own judgement and also Achilles respects the gods unlike Agamemnon - so he can't escape from Thetis' request. Thetis is also very beautiful so it may have also been the reason why Zeus agreed.


Maybe I missed something but I'm not exactly sure what you mean here? I mean I agree with you (was it Hesiod's Cosmogony that talked about the Gods' various attempts at creating civilizations? I remember reading that the Classical iteration of man was like the fifth try or something) but I'm not so confident with your reasoning.

ahh it's Hesiod's Theogony btw :P and yeah I'll explain. Once upon a time, all there was in the world was 'Chaos' (as in an actual entity). Then randomly in some kind of like a brain fart spontaneity, out spawned Erebus and Night (aka Nyx). They slept together and got Ether (day), and on a random side-quest Night decides to undergo asexual reproduction and give birth to a lot of children. Long story short it somehow got out of hand, and the golden race of man was born with Cronus, who castrates his father Uranus. Cronus then became the top dude, but then gets killed by Zeus, his son, and then shit happens, the silver race of man came about, which then somehow became the bronze race of man (the lower caste and not immortal sadly) <-- us.

The greeks were obsessed with the sons-killing-fathers kink, until Clytemnestra came around in the Oresteia and began going on about the mother-daughter relationship as being more important, which Athena dismisses (which many feminists have argued over the last century about as a prime example of a patriarchal society prevalent in western culture. but we'll leave it that in another time). This is almost unprecedented as it had almost never been done in Greek myth and tragedy until Aeschylus brought it up :P

You can read about the creation myth here: http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/The_Creation/the_creation.html

I kind of disagree with you there. I think having the Gods using the Greeks as a tool to solve their disputes stresses the importance of their lives. Especially those who have direct contact with the Gods and therefore have a significant impact on the tidings of war; like Achilles and Chryses. Without them deciding to employ the Gods' help in their personal disagreements, the war would have likely had a different outcome. I think the Iliad is less of a clear 'this is what it's like' and more of an exploration into the nature of the Gods, who were for the most part pretty fickle and confusing in their behaviour.

Yeah no, I won't argue on the hero's insignificance, that wasn't what I was trying to say, but it did come off a bit like that (oops). But remember, there are people in this war like Achilles who are draped in the history and mistakes of the Gods. From Aeneas to his mother Aphrodite, Hera and her love for the Greeks and Carthage, her fave city which she knows will be destroyed by people of Trojan blood, Zeus and his will (?) to proceed with Aeneas' mission, maybe (?) or at least that's how Virgil puts it, Zeus and his burdened past with Thetis and Achilles, and there's probably a lot more that I can't think of.

Point is, there is a reason why so many gods are involved in mortals lives, especially in the Trojan War, as it involves both the divine and mortal realm. However, as I was saying, there is a struggle and the condition which man must face in battle is brutal and harsh. It's almost futile, if you look at it from a larger dimension, but in the Iliad it is this 'present-ness' that the gods envy.

And you're right, Homer explores rather than concludes an experience, and I was wrong to say that he does say 'it's stupid being a mortal'. But given that he has had the gods inspire him to tell the story, and that he adopts this omnipotence over the epic poem, his exploration of both worlds does bear witness to the brutality of living, which can be said that he's saying it in a way that kinda suggests that 'it's just the way things are, and thats the way life is: harsh but abstractly beautiful' :A

Not doing the Aeneid, unfortunately. :(

At least you're doing Iliad :((
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 09:13:56 pm by michael leahcim »

michael leahcim

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Re: WHERE ART THOU CLASSICS PEOPLE
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2016, 09:22:56 pm »
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Noticing a few things here: I'm really terrible in writing. My explanations tend to be reaallly convoluted in writing, but I swear - when I say it aloud, it's never the case. I'm usually very concise with my arguments verbally, which is strange. Gotta work on it, it seems *sigh* damn it words *shakes fist*