Where the 99.95ers came from

[aspiringantelope]

And what contribution to those results is made by factors within the school's control (ie. teaching, school organisation, etc.) and what contribution is due to the demographics of the cohort? And what evidence do you have of that?

So are you stating that students would not be attracted to a top-performing school? That student's put no importance to education? It is patently evidence in the VCE average ATAR/ SS results.

[Bri MT]

Like I said, socio-economic factors do come into play. But most of those kids that got 99.95s are probably on scholarships anyway. The whole point of scholarships at private schools are pretty much to attract bright students so they can get access to private schools and so that they can raise the school's reputation.

In order to go to a school like that you need to know it exists, this is heavily dependent on where you live in terms of geographical proximity (SES influenced), how engaged your family is in your education (SES influenced) & if people in your community tend to be aware of schools like that (SES influenced). You also need to believe that there's a decent chance you could get in on scholarship to bother applying (whole range of factors here). You also need to have your parents be willing for you to apply. For example, in grade 6 I wanted to try for the scholarship for a local-ish private school and mum said no because she was worried that either my brother or I might now get an offer & she wanted us to go to the same school. Another concern was access to transport. Mum worked full time (single parent household) and therefore wouldn't be able to drive us there (public transport in the area I grew up is far far from ideal).    When I realised that I wouldn't be able to do 3 of the subjects I wanted for VCE I considered applying for a school in the city, but living in a low SES area, the amount of time I'd spend on travel to do that would mean I'd have to give up band, student leadership, youth council etc and still have less time than normal.

Obviously you can't generalise from the example of myself across to the whole state, but I hope that this highlights that SES doesn't play a minor role. (& I haven't even gone into the commercial side of VCE with tutoring, guides, exam packs etc.)

[PhoenixxFire]

So are you stating that students would not be attracted to a top-performing school? That student's put no importance to education? It is patently evidence in the VCE average ATAR/ SS results.

Nah I think what SRK is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that because people who want to do well are attracted to high performing schools, it creates a cycle. People who were always going to do well end up concentrated in these schools, giving off the impression that the schools are good whereas it's actually just because the students are good.

[Chelsea f.c.]

i would consider a teacher good if they helped students achieve their best possible mark irrespective of abilities... i had a great teacher who achieves around 45% of 40s every year but specificly makes time for the disadvantaged or people that are finding the subject difficult... having attended a very underrepresented school for half a year and having attended a private school i do acknowledge the difference in teaching standards but i know that many private schools actually seek to remediate the socio-economic divide through scholarships where i actually tutored a refugee for 2 years who went to Xavier

to answer pheonixfire

[brynstar]

I agree that ATARs are not the best indicator of what it would actually be like at the school and the quality of education: my school, for example, usually has a median study score of between 26 and 28 but there are nonetheless some incredibly dedicated teachers.

However, I disagree that those schools with the 99.95 students attract naturally "brighter" students. After all, that rather depends on the brighter students having the money to attend the schools. In my local area, there was pretty much only 1 or 2 full scholarships available for the most elite schools and the only way I could have ever attended one would be with a full scholarship. Yes, there are people who would do well wherever they go, but I think they are a very small minority.

I don't want to diminish those students' achievements, they are clearly very smart, but as someone who got a 99.85 from a very low performing state school (dux last year only got 88, it's not uncommon for the highest score in a subject to be in the 20s), I can't help feeling like I had to work twice as hard for a slightly lower score. Both my Literature and French classes were combined year 11 and 12, resulting in less teacher attention, and I was never able to do a French exchange for financial reasons. Our school buildings were very cramped due to long, long overdue renovations, resulting in very small classrooms and sometimes noisy spaces (there was no dedicated year 12 silent study area). Most classrooms have no aircon or heating and I did several SACs in extreme heat or cold. When I went to a Literature lecture at a high profile university, the lecturer asked if there were any students there from a particular very elite private school and then started gushing about how she was friends with their teacher and what a fantastic school it was. This made me feel like I was left out of some kind  of elite "club" that I would never be part of. My Lit teacher told me that she is never able to attend PD meetings because the time and location makes it impossible for regional teachers and the school can't afford to cover her classes. Apart from that, there were many unmotivated students in my classes that made it really hard to work. I could go on, but they are just some of the difficulties...

Don't get me wrong, I got raw 50 in Literature and I am very happy with my ATAR but I still think about how I could have got a HECS free place at Melbourne uni with 0.05 more and honestly, it doesn't seem fair.

[S_R_K]

So are you stating that students would not be attracted to a top-performing school? That student's put no importance to education? It is patently evidence in the VCE average ATAR/ SS results.

I'm not saying any of that. I'm making the point – as well articulated by miniturtle above – that the school a student attends is mostly the decision of parents, not the student. And furthermore, that choosing based on Year 12 results is largely irrational, because differences in Year 12 results are not correlated with differences in school effectiveness.

Nah I think what SRK is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that because people who want to do well are attracted to high performing schools, it creates a cycle. People who were always going to do well end up concentrated in these schools, giving off the impression that the schools are good whereas it's actually just because the students are good.

Yes, that is largely what is going on, and we have known about it for a long time.

[DinWell]

In order to go to a school like that you need to know it exists, this is heavily dependent on where you live in terms of geographical proximity (SES influenced), how engaged your family is in your education (SES influenced) & if people in your community tend to be aware of schools like that (SES influenced).

I agree with this so much. I was a very high achieving student yet neither I or my parents had any idea about these top achieving schools. I didn't even know about local selective schools like Nossal or John Monash since none of the kids talked about it in my low ranked public school. I only learnt in year 11 that highschools give scholarships. Until then I thought that only universities did that!
Not only this, low ranked public schools also may not have enough funding to run classes with a low pupil count. My school is not running specialist math or english language next year because not enough people wanted to do it. I am almost certain that if I was able to eng lang this year, I would've increased my atar,
Another stupid thing is that I wasn't offered a subject to do early in year 11 even though I had the ability to do very well in it. They didn't have many year 11's attempting to do a subject early so they assumed the same for me. Again, if I was offered this, I would've been able to increase my atar.
I just wish I discovered this wonderful site earlier, since it provides so much information that's immensely valuable to me.

I think I did well despite my school so it's true there are students that do well no matter where they go. However, if I went to a better school, it's hard not to think that I would've done better.

[brynstar]

I agree with this so much. I was a very high achieving student yet neither I or my parents had any idea about these top achieving schools. I didn't even know about local selective schools like Nossal or John Monash since none of the kids talked about it in my low ranked public school.
Not only this, low ranked public schools also may not have enough funding to run classes with a low pupil count. My school is not running specialist math or english language next year because not enough people wanted to do it. I am almost certain that if I was able to eng lang this year, I would've increased my atar,
Another stupid thing is that I wasn't offered a subject to do early in year 11 even though I had the ability to do very well in it. They didn't have many year 11's attempting to do a subject early so they assumed the same for me. Again, if I was offered this, I would've been able to increase my atar.

I think I did well despite my school so it's true there are students that do well no matter where they go. However, if I went to a better school, it's hard not to think that I would've done better.

I relate so much! I'm not really a science student but my school didn't run methods, specialist or physics this year so people had to do distance ed and a lot of the other classes were combined. I also live very far away from all the select entry schools. Well done on doing well in spite of these circumstances!

[Aaron]

I love threads like this. Just based on the responses, we can establish so much about their experiences to-date in terms of schooling etc I have gone on an absolute +1 frenzy in this thread (I don't usually give out +1s lightly). Love it.

Kudos to you folks in the government system pushing through to achieve your dreams given difficult circumstances. If only we all had the luxury of an independent school which apparently has gold plated teachers (I did a fair few observation rounds at a private school - not naming on purpose - over the course of a year and let me tell you, there was some pretty shocking teaching going on there, yet students were still netting high marks). It really is a spin of the wheel as to the quality of the teacher - in all systems, some are great and some are not so great. There are some government schools out there doing some fantastic things for education in this state, albeit crap funding arrangements year in year out. Obviously in the independent system, the resourcing is there, but it is what the individual class teacher does with the available resources that makes an impact. You could have $$$ at your feet and use it in the worst way possible - will it improve student outcomes and achieve higher results - absolutely not.

Comments above re: subjects not being run - this is definitely the case in a number of schools. In fact, you are considered lucky if you had a qualified maths teacher even during the earlier years of high school. A recent AMSI study found that 76% of students will be taught at least once by an out-of-field teacher in the maths domain, and 35% twice. In fact, as a student, I also experienced the consequences of the funding problems in the government system (e.g. subjects not running etc). As a teacher, I have also seen this occur. Consequences of not even running subjects can make things challenging - e.g. I had a student who was really interested in IT, yet the school wouldn't run Computing due to the lack of interest... which in a way is fair enough, but for that student who is inspired and interested by this discipline, they cannot pursue it (unless they do Distance Ed, and let's be honest, not all students are as well informed as they could be as to DistEd).

In the interest of keeping on topic and not diverting the thread further, I will stop there. It is my hope that in the future we will see true equality where all schools provide students with the same opportunities to be the best they can be and aim for a 99.95 if they choose this. Whether i'll still be alive when this occurs, who knows. I studied to become a teacher to try and provide high quality teaching to those that don't have the luxury of access to a fee-paying school. My contract situation atm makes me frustrated as the government funding also affects teachers in the system as well as students and I have considered moving systems altogether, but I aim to stay in the govt system as long as I possibly can. There will, perhaps, come a time where I will be forced to make this decision due to various circumstances... but my initial motivations are genuine.

In order to go to a school like that you need to know it exists, this is heavily dependent on where you live in terms of geographical proximity (SES influenced), how engaged your family is in your education (SES influenced) & if people in your community tend to be aware of schools like that (SES influenced).

I love this, and I wholeheartedly agree.  *emphasis required*

[DinWell]

(I did a fair few observation rounds at a private school - not naming on purpose - over the course of a year and let me tell you, there was some pretty shocking teaching going on there, yet students were still netting high marks). It really is a spin of the wheel as to the quality of the teacher - in all systems, some are great and some are not so great.

Agreed, throughout year 12, I became friends with some kids from Melbourne High and they always seem to complain about their teachers. I think that one of the biggest factors is the cohort. If students around you are motivated, it'll motivate you. I found it very hard to study alone nearing SACs when all of my friends were outside playing sports or socialising. I don't know if this is always the case, but in high ranked schools, high performing kids are respected whereas I was belittled for being a "nerd" and having "no life" because of my study. In my school, it was cool to never study, even though kids in other schools brag about the amount of study they do. (judging from the people I know from selective/private schools).

[Bri MT]

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I relate so much.

My school didn't offer spec at all while I was there (& we weren't allowed to study it by distance ed). Me & a few other people begged our peers to take physics so we could study it, otherwise we wouldn't have gotten that either due to low numbers (the year level below mine didn't get a physics class ). I learnt that eng lang was a subject while I was in year 11 through talking to another Scout on a hike. I couldn't help but think that if I did eng lang in year 11, or if I did it with an actual classroom teacher rather than DECV I would've gotten a higher study score.
Or maybe if I'd studied Japanese and outdoor ed without progressing partway through only to have those options taken away... or if I'd been given the extension work I craved in earlier years...

In the end, I got a higher ATAR than I needed anyway, but I can't help but feel that I didn't reach my full academic potential.

...I don't know if this is always the case, but in high ranked schools, high performing kids are respected whereas I was belittled for being a "nerd" and having "no life" because of my study. In my school, it was cool to never study, even though kids in other schools brag about the amount of study they do. (judging from the people I know from selective/private schools).

ahahaha yes. I learnt quickly to "tone down" things like my vocabulary for social acceptance & that most people just didn't do (even assessed) homework.

[$noopDodd]

Some very good points raised here. As a student from a school that consistently rakes in multiple 99.95s, I'd like to offer my perspective on this

While the students who do achieve this ATAR are no doubt extremely intelligent and have worked their asses off, I've noticed that (most of them) have something in common: choosing 2-3 of the following subjects: Spesh, Latin, French and Chinese (+ doing methods 3/4 in year 11)
Although the 4 subjects mentioned above scale up a shit ton for a good reason, this does not deter the stronger students from doing them (who strive to score a scaled 50+ for a 211 aggregate). For example, most of the latin cohort simply grinds through the subject for the scaling despite not having much interest in it, and the median is a scaled 51 (fk i really shoulda done it).

Essentially, quite a few of them pretty much play the numbers game - (again this is a generalisation, there are a few kids who truly enjoy latin). And tbh, that's fair enough - if your school was really good at a certain subject and you had some sort of interest in it, there's no reason not to use that to your advantage.
It's important to note here that the school's teachers in these departments is particularly strong, compared to other departments e.g. commerce, humanities, and to an extent, English - so English is pretty much luck of the draw for a good teacher, so 99.95ers will try insanely hard for English - most end up with high 40s/ a 50.

Of course, there are multiple other factors e.g. strong cohort for good SAC scaling, motivation etc.
Also, I'd like to point out that roughly half (or less) of the 99.95s at our school are from students who came to the school with scholarships, and that many people are attracted to the school solely for its high performing academic results.

tldr; not trying to diminish achievements of these students at all, but high scaling subjects do play a big role

[turinturambar]

I relate so much.

My school didn't offer spec at all while I was there (& we weren't allowed to study it by distance ed). Me & a few other people begged our peers to take physics so we could study it, otherwise we wouldn't have gotten that either due to low numbers (the year level below mine didn't get a physics class ). I learnt that eng lang was a subject while I was in year 11 through talking to another Scout on a hike. I couldn't help but think that if I did eng lang in year 11, or if I did it with an actual classroom teacher rather than DECV I would've gotten a higher study score.
Or maybe if I'd studied Japanese and outdoor ed without progressing partway through only to have those options taken away... or if I'd been given the extension work I craved in earlier years...

In the end, I got a higher ATAR than I needed anyway, but I can't help but feel that I didn't reach my full academic potential.

That was to a fair extent my story too.  I was fortunate my school offered specialist (they don't now) and it suited me, but only heard "You might have done better with other English options" after I'd finished VCE.  And I'm not sure how much I cared about the raw number when I was clearly in my degree (that is, until there was the threat of my next sibling beating that number ).

ahahaha yes. I learnt quickly to "tone down" things like my vocabulary for social acceptance & that most people just didn't do (even assessed) homework.

This too (though I was probably both arrogant enough and happy enough to be alone that I refused to tone down far enough).  For me, Uni was a game changer: the first time I was dealing with lots of fellow students who were there because they wanted to be there, not because they had to be there, the first time I wasn't automatically at or near head of the class, the first time I was dealing with people from very different backgrounds - many with equal (or greater) intelligence, but seeing the world differently as a result of different experiences. And I probably recognise that more now than I did then.

And, marks-wise, I know some of my fellow Uni students who got better ATARs than me also got better Uni results, while others who got better ATARs got much worse Uni results. Which made me come to terms with the fact that the ATAR was just a number: Yes, it says something about you, but a good ATAR is not a guarantee you will succeed at Uni, and success in Uni is not a guarantee you will succeed in life (that is, even if we could agree on a measure for "success").  Nor for that matter is a "bad" ATAR a guarantee you will do badly in Uni or in life - in fact, overcoming significant adversity may hurt your final ATAR, but help teach a lot of life skills that are useful later.