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Author Topic: How should teachers be paid?  (Read 12051 times)  Share 

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brendan

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How should teachers be paid?
« on: January 19, 2008, 09:00:14 pm »
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Teaching and the Teacher Labour Market: The Case for Reform
Paper: melbourneinstitute.com/wp/wp2004n28.pdf
http://melbourneinstitute.com/conf/prevconf/Papers_presentations/Webster_Beth_presentation.pdf

How Can We Improve Teacher Quality?
by ANU Economist Andrew Leigh
http://econrsss.anu.edu.au/~aleigh/pdf/TeacherQuality_MelbRev.pdf

Initiatives to address teacher shortage
www.acer.edu.au/documents/PolicyBrief5.pdf

Gillard all for merit pay in classroom
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23069745-13881,00.html

Students' results must be the main measure
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23064528-13881,00.html

Teachers warm to merit pay
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23064534-13881,00.html

Teachers' $50k bush bonus
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23069747-13881,00.html

Plan to widen Pearson's incentive scheme
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23074684-13881,00.html

What do you think? How should teachers be paid? What do you think of the current arrangements?

bubble sunglasses

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2008, 12:30:46 am »
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 I've no idea how "merit pay" could be implemented. Grades are unreliable, as students "potential" is very difficult to measure and any system based on recommendations from students, parents and teachers is way too susceptible to corruption and nepotism.

Collin Li

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2008, 12:36:48 am »
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I like how the University of Melbourne has teaching and feedback questionnaires. They are a good way to evaluate teacher quality. I think this should be considered alongside with academic results delivered by the teacher.

I don't think the scores from either the quality of teaching surveys or the tests must have an absolute impact on wages, but I believe there should be at least some roughly defined brackets (that good schools would have, to keep their teachers from believing the system is chaotic and based on personal bias), and that the head of the school should be responsible for making sure that the school's teaching staff is funded well.

It is easy to circumvent teachers that cheat. You just randomise questions and the order of the multiple choice answers as they appear on the exam.

excal

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2008, 12:50:43 am »
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Feedback is good - but is giving a student a survey per teacher necessarily reliable too? What stopping the student from making bad comments about a teacher if they have personal (rather than professional) issue with them?

As mentioned earlier, grades are unreliable - student's natural talents can vary from year to year.

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Collin Li

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2008, 01:13:24 am »
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It is possible to standardise this by having a general aptitude exam at the beginning of the year, and then an exam near the end. Quality of teaching surveys should be considered but like I said, they shouldn't necessitate any changes in wage, rather they should help those who are responsible for maintaining their staff with making wage decisions.

Ultimately, I don't believe that we should be debating about the policy for the 'wise men' in parliament to implement. I believe that we should give control of teacher funding back to the schools. They will create the most efficient process possible in order to get good quality staff and keep them. After all, it is in their interests to do so. Instead of opting for a one-size-fits-all government policy, we should decentralise the industry and invite innovation in staff management so that kids will have a chance to experience a better education led by better teachers.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 01:16:39 am by coblin »

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2008, 01:56:52 am »
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It is possible to standardise this by having a general aptitude exam at the beginning of the year, and then an exam near the end. Quality of teaching surveys should be considered but like I said, they shouldn't necessitate any changes in wage, rather they should help those who are responsible for maintaining their staff with making wage decisions.

Are we testing the students or the teachers? Cause I think it's a bit unfair to force students to sit a test, for the benefit of only the teachers.

Ultimately, I don't believe that we should be debating about the policy for the 'wise men' in parliament to implement. I believe that we should give control of teacher funding back to the schools. They will create the most efficient process possible in order to get good quality staff and keep them. After all, it is in their interests to do so. Instead of opting for a one-size-fits-all government policy, we should decentralise the industry and invite innovation in staff management so that kids will have a chance to experience a better education led by better teachers.

That could work. That's my only real comment on this.
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Collin Li

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2008, 09:47:52 am »
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It's for the benefit of future students as well.

Under my system of decentralisation, there would be a plethora of teacher wage policies out there, and the most successful ones would dominate. If parents are truly averse to their students taking tests for the 'benefit of only the teachers,' then they can choose a school that doesn't use testing as part of their teacher recruitment policy.

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2008, 10:11:51 am »
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performance pay is fundamentally flawed. unless you want waste time and money establishing pointless bureaucracies and policies to somehow determine the "quality" of every single teacher in this state is, the one-size-fits-all policy - although it may be unfair - should stand.

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2008, 11:46:55 am »
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Ultimately, I don't believe that we should be debating about the policy for the 'wise men' in parliament to implement. I believe that we should give control of teacher funding back to the schools. They will create the most efficient process possible in order to get good quality staff and keep them. After all, it is in their interests to do so. Instead of opting for a one-size-fits-all government policy, we should decentralise the industry and invite innovation in staff management so that kids will have a chance to experience a better education led by better teachers.

That could work. That's my only real comment on this.


yes, it could work, but the problem will be private schools having better funding -> better teachers... is that necessarily a good thing?? why is it better this way when potentially successful students are limited by their family financial background??
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Eriny

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2008, 12:08:03 pm »
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Yeah, that would be my concern to - that lower income schools will not be able to pay for the better teachers that they need.

brendan

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2008, 12:09:41 pm »
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Ultimately, I don't believe that we should be debating about the policy for the 'wise men' in parliament to implement. I believe that we should give control of teacher funding back to the schools. They will create the most efficient process possible in order to get good quality staff and keep them. After all, it is in their interests to do so. Instead of opting for a one-size-fits-all government policy, we should decentralise the industry and invite innovation in staff management so that kids will have a chance to experience a better education led by better teachers.

That could work. That's my only real comment on this.


yes, it could work, but the problem will be private schools having better funding -> better teachers... is that necessarily a good thing?? why is it better this way when potentially successful students are limited by their family financial background??

That's just the politics of envy. So what if they have good teachers? Rich parents will always be able to afford more for their kids. What are you gonna do? Use government to take it from them? Robin hood style? Secondly, with Asian students, research has found no relationship between socio-economic status and student achievement. None whatsoever, so you don't even have causation. If what you said was actually true, then the research would have had to at least found a statistically significant positive correlation. Thirdly, i don't see how this point is even related to the OP because what you describe is already happening right now.

A lot of the debate around different pay structures fails to address the main point - that compensation arrangements are determined by a Soviet-style central bureaucracy rather than by the individual school, why that ought to be so, is beyond me. It should be individual schools determining for themselves what compensation arrangements suit them, not some bureaucrat imposing conformity on all schools from a distant office. The problem is only further exacerbated by the fact that the government bureaucracy has decided to impose upon all government schools a uniform and rigid pay scale in which poor teachers are grossly overpaid and good teachers grossly underpaid whereby pay is determined far more by seniority than by merit. So, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the average quality of incoming students to the teaching profession has been decreasing over time: "Between 1983 and 2003, the average percentile rank of those entering teacher education fell from 74 to 61, while the average rank of new teachers fell from 70 to 62." http://econrsss.anu.edu.au/~aleigh/pdf/TQConf_Ryan.pdf

So the bottom line is that whether the pay arrangement is determined by merit, experience or even penis length, it should not be imposed from above by a central government bureaucracy.

On the question of teacher quality in the USA there exists a highly regarded set of standards for measuring highly accomplished teaching developed by the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards. Certification by the NBPTS is to teachers what the CFA is to Financial Analysts and what the CPA/CA is to Accountants. However, there is no such equivalent in Australia, in fact, there are only a few examples of teaching standards in Australia currently that are complete and useful for measuring teacher quality. Examples include the standards developed by Australian Association of Mathematics Teachers, Australian Science Teachers Association and the WA Education Department’s Level 3 Classroom teacher standards.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 12:36:37 pm by brendan »

Eriny

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2008, 12:50:51 pm »
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That's just the politics of envy. So what if they have good teachers? Rich parents will always be able to afford more for their kids. What are you gonna do? Use government to take it from them? Robin hood style? Secondly, with Asian students, research has found no relationship between socio-economic status and student achievement. None whatsoever, so you don't even have causation. If what you said was actually true, then the research would have had to at least found a statistically significant positive correlation. Thirdly, i don't see how this point is even related to the OP because what you describe is already happening right now.

That may be true for Asian students, but it isn't for other students (i.e. the majority of the student population in Australia). One of the most accurate indicators of how well most of us will do academically is our postcode.

And to be honest, I'm pretty sick of this "so what?" attitude. We should care about other people because life is so much better if other people decide to give a damn about you, with little cost to the other people.

brendan

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2008, 01:00:01 pm »
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That may be true for Asian students, but it isn't for other students (i.e. the majority of the student population in Australia). One of the most accurate indicators of how well most of us will do academically is our postcode.

But it shows your casual theory to be incorrect. You haven't even provided an explanation of why it you don't see a correlation for Asian students. If there was a causal relationship, then it would show for everyone regardless of their race - the fact that you didn't even get a correlation disproves your casual theory.

We should care about other people because life is so much better if other people decide to give a damn about you, with little cost to the other people.

You are sick of the "so what" because it forces you to think and say more than just a few nice slogans and talking points. So what do you propose? Take the money away from the rich? If you are going to worry about rich people being able to afford good teachers, then by consequence you should also worry about people like coblin providing tuition services because the poor can't afford it either.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 01:42:46 pm by brendan »

enwiabe

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2008, 01:03:14 pm »
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$60k starting salary
$80k-$100k (how much you get based on performance) without masters
$120k-$150k with masters (how much you get based on performance)

boom, hello excellent teacher workforce.

Eriny

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Re: How should teachers be paid?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2008, 01:33:17 pm »
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But it shows your casual theory to be incorrect. You haven't even provided an explanation of why it you don't see a correlation for Asian students. If there was a causal relationship, then it would show for everyone regardless of their race - the fact that you didn't even get a correlation disproves your theory. Secondly you confuse correlation with causation: First you said "potentially successful students are limited by their family financial background." and then you said "accurate indicators of how well most of us will do academically is our postcode.". The first is making a casual claim, but the second is only correlation. Didn't you learn that correlation doesn't imply causation.

Firstly, I didn't say "potentially successful students are limited by their family financial background". Please don't incorrectly cite things that I didn't say, Obsolete Chaos was the one who said that. Secondly, well duh, of course correlation doesn't imply causation, but it's not like this inference is something I just randomly decided to make up, see here: http://www.educationfoundation.org.au/downloads/How%20Equitable%20Are%20Our%20Schools.pdf

We should care about other people because life is so much better if other people decide to give a damn about you, with little cost to the other people.
You are sick of the "so what" because it forces you to think and say more than just a few nice slogans and talking points. So what do you propose? Take the money away from the rich? If you are going to worry about rich people being able to afford good teachers, then by consequence you should also worry about people like coblin providing tuition services because the poor can't afford it either.
What you are suggesting I believe is ridiculous. If you are in public education, you should get the same standard of teaching, regardless of what school you come from. If you are paying extra for private education ot tuition, fine, good on you. The important thing though is that everyone has the same access to the resources required to do well in school/life. And why should that be the case? Because having those basic resources is what gives EVERYBODY the personal freedom to work towards what they want in life, not just the select few.