ABC News Article

[owidjaja]

So I just found this article about the decreasing number of students doing maths and science:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-22/australian-students-turning-their-back-on-maths-and-science/9074114?WT.ac=statenews_nsw

Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about this?

(P.S. Not sure where exactly this topic belongs so- to the moderators- feel free to move this topic elsewhere)

[zofromuxo]

I'm not surprised at all.
The way maths is run by schools in Australia isn't involving everyone and by that I mean it doesn't cater to all students. The whole "calclus is a joke" to "algebra isn't relevant" still rings true to this day.
What needs to happen is teaching of maths relevant to students like financial maths.

As for the articles assertion on the female to male ratio.
Sometimes, girls just don't want to do maths. It doesn't interest them plain and simple. It isn't necessarily about as Dr Mahya puts it.

"Most of our daughters are going to follow what society tells them they're capable of and at the moment we're not really telling our girls they can be leaders."

I disagree and think it could lead to more harm then good if we pigenhole the issue on "societal standards". Maths & Science enrolment falling has a lot to do with the curriculum and also the perception of it. I mean just look at the government cuts on jobs in the science industry. I wouldn't want to study science in Australia, if I wasn't valued for it. Also if my teacher looks bored out of their minds teaching me maths, then I would most likely think Maths is boring as well.

I come from a VCE background and not a HSC one though. So my opinion may not match up to what happens on a HSC level.

[owidjaja]

I'm not surprised at all.
The way maths is run by schools in Australia isn't involving everyone and by that I mean it doesn't cater to all students. The whole "calclus is a joke" to "algebra isn't relevant" still rings true to this day.
What needs to happen is teaching of maths relevant to students like financial maths.

As for the articles assertion on the female to male ratio.
Sometimes, girls just don't want to do maths. It doesn't interest them plain and simple. It isn't necessarily about as Dr Mahya puts it. I disagree and think it could lead to more harm then good if we pigenhole the issue on "societal standards". Maths & Science enrolment falling has a lot to do with the curriculum and also the perception of it. I mean just look at the government cuts on jobs in the science industry. I wouldn't want to study science in Australia, if I wasn't valued for it. Also if my teacher looks bored out of their minds teaching me maths, then I would most likely think Maths is boring as well.

I come from a VCE background and not a HSC one though. So my opinion may not match up to what happens on a HSC level.

Kinda similar here in NSW too with the way they teach algebra and calculus. Although those concepts are required, teachers need to emphasise more on applied maths so students an understand how important they are in everyday life. Though I am guilty of asking 'What does ____ have to do with everyday life?' to my tutors, they're able to provide a much better explanation of how they relate in terms of uni courses/tasks whereas I've seen some of my classmates asks math teachers the same question except they don't even know where exactly they fit in terms of careers.

As for the sciences, I agree with what you said.

Maths & Science enrolment falling has a lot to do with the curriculum and also the perception of it.

As an aspiring aerospace engineer and physicist, Australia sucks when it comes to employment and that can ruin a student's motivation to pursue a science career. Plus, the number of unmotivated science and math teachers I've encountered is ridiculous. Right now, my math teacher can barely teach math (and it's not just me- everyone in my class thinks so) and that's dangerous considering it's Extension 1 Math. No wonder there's no Extension 2 Math class for us! And I think it's unfair to push all the blame on 'societal standards' because if that were the case, then they should also emphasise the small amount of males in nursing schools rather than females in engineering and science.

[bundahboy]

It's interesting to note that the decline in maths and science enrolments in places like Australia isn't reflected in, say, Hungary or South Korea. This leads me to believe that at least part of the issue stems from the way Australian (and to an extent Western) culture perceives technical fields.

I notice that a lot of people in Australia don't seem to view maths and science as essential skills. Instead, their value is often seen as being contingent on who you are or what you're using the subjects for. So, for example, if you're an engineer or a software developer, maths and science are viewed as important skills to have. But if you don't have any interest in such fields then our society gives you a 'free pass'; i.e. if you're not involved in something that explicitly requires maths and science, then it's OK not to be familiar with them. This manifests itself in many students characterising themselves as 'maths students' or 'humanities students' from a very young age.
 
This is vastly different from other cultures, in which maths and science are seen as essential skills in their own right. Without over-generalising, many Asian and Eastern European societies value the technical fields not only for their practical applications, but also because they equip people with the ability to think critically and problem solve. So regardless of one's career aims or interests, maths and science are invariably seen as indispensable to being considered an 'educated' citizen in these societies.

By viewing the study of maths and science through a utilitarian lens, I think you can only ever appeal to the people who are rationally minded enough to already have an interest in these fields for their own sake. What needs to be done imo is the establishment of a societal norm under which it is simply unacceptable not to be adequately versed in maths and science, just like it is a blanket expectation for people to know how to read and write.

[owidjaja]

It's interesting to note that the decline in maths and science enrolments in places like Australia isn't reflected in, say, Hungary or South Korea. This leads me to believe that at least part of the issue stems from the way Australian (and to an extent Western) culture perceives technical fields.

I notice that a lot of people in Australia don't seem to view maths and science as essential skills. Instead, their value is often seen as being contingent on who you are or what you're using the subjects for. So, for example, if you're an engineer or a software developer, maths and science are viewed as important skills to have. But if you don't have any interest in such fields then our society gives you a 'free pass'; i.e. if you're not involved in something that explicitly requires maths and science, then it's OK not to be familiar with them. This manifests itself in many students characterising themselves as 'maths students' or 'humanities students' from a very young age.
 
This is vastly different from other cultures, in which maths and science are seen as essential skills in their own right. Without over-generalising, many Asian and Eastern European societies value the technical fields not only for their practical applications, but also because they equip people with the ability to think critically and problem solve. So regardless of one's career aims or interests, maths and science are invariably seen as indispensable to being considered an 'educated' citizen in these societies.

By viewing the study of maths and science through a utilitarian lens, I think you can only ever appeal to the people who are rationally minded enough to already have an interest in these fields for their own sake. What needs to be done imo is the establishment of a societal norm under which it is simply unacceptable not to be adequately versed in maths and science, just like it is a blanket expectation for people to know how to read and write.

Yeah, I really don't like it when there is a clear division between 'math subjects' and 'humanities' subjects. A lot of people think they're two different extremes and there are no overlapping elements but I think both kinds of subjects are equally important. As you said, critical thinking and practical work is extremely important since the whole purpose of school is to prepare us for the work force. At the same time, writing skills are also equally important since it helps is communicate more articulately. As someone who enjoys both kinds of subjects, I really think combining the two types of subjects is important rather than just doing 'pure humanities subjects' or 'pure math subjects.' This is why I'm glad that USyd has implemented this Mathematics prerequisite because it really shows how important math is in society- not just the fact that you're just finding 'x' but the skills involved in math-based subjects.

[zofromuxo]

Do final years think about the bigger picture?
I wonder if that also plays a part in this debate as well.
That the individual students themselves may need to take responsibility in linking and understanding how maths and science subjects play apart of their lives.

[EEEEEEP]

So I just found this article about the decreasing number of students doing maths and science:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-22/australian-students-turning-their-back-on-maths-and-science/9074114?WT.ac=statenews_nsw

Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about this?

(P.S. Not sure where exactly this topic belongs so- to the moderators- feel free to move this topic elsewhere)

As a nation, we are more arts, music and in general crafts focused.

Just look at the Newspapers, and the media news sites...How many shows and newspapers dedicate themselves to music, celebrities, movies etc? If you go to Asia or China, there are much more shows dedicated to science and tech... where as the only one that remotely does this in AUS is the ABC.

EVEN THE TECH section is rubbish




Another dimension is that funding for science has been going down in Australia and organisations such as the CSIRO have been losing funding.

[Aaron]

What needs to happen is teaching of maths relevant to students like financial maths.

It's difficult to do so when Further maths is perceived as the 'dumb' option, when it's a genuine alternative to those that want applied over pure.

Stereotypes and perceptions/attitudes to math are the main reason why the decrease is happening. I personally think some form of maths in addition to English should be compulsory (or even better.. to select a STEM area as a compulsory option). I've never understood why it isn't.

Back to attitudes etc: We have a culture where it's okay to say we're not "great" at math and that is accepted in society. "Too difficult", "Male dominated", "RELEVANCE" and more.

Once we make it more relevant, applicable to real life and the culture shifts.. maybe then we'll get somewhere.