Does this whole ATAR system encourage competitiveness?

[Dani.Dan.Aim]

This question has been bugging me for quite a while now. I have heard many stories of students that once they start their IA's, they slowly become hesitant in sharing knowledge/materials with other students as they're competing with the whole of year 12 cohort. Is this true? I mean a system that eradicates healthy collaboration? Something just doesn't seem right.
Interesting in hearing your thoughts.

[SnekiSnek]

This question has been bugging me for quite a while now. I have heard many stories of students that once they start their IA's, they slowly become hesitant in sharing knowledge/materials with other students as they're competing with the whole of year 12 cohort. Is this true? I mean a system that eradicates healthy collaboration? Something just doesn't seem right.
Interesting in hearing your thoughts.

In my experience it depends a lot on people and the school that they go to. A few of my friends in very highly competitive schools had people telling them wrong information, wrong dates for SACs, hoard resources, and in one case someone stole someone's notes before a SAC. I guess there's a lot more pressure to be the best in those schools compared to a school like mine (bottom 10% of the state) so I only noticed it a little bit within my own cohort.

Our teachers have always said that you are competing with the rest of the state for the best scores so I guess in a way VCE does encourage competitiveness amongst students.

[Dani.Dan.Aim]

A few of my friends in very highly competitive schools had people telling them wrong information, wrong dates for SACs, hoard resources, and in one case someone stole someone's notes before a SAC.

Damn, that is absolutely ridiculous, couldn't imagine the point where someone sabotages the grades of someone else. But I really hope there is more to this, if not this whole system is shi**.

[caffinatedloz]

I guess one redeeming feature of the system is that it rewards collaboration within a cohort. If your classmates do well then together your sacs are understood to be difficult and as a whole you all get better study scores.

Personally I've never understood the competition and refusal to help others- teaching and explaining to others is one of the best ways to learn!

[Billuminati]

In my experience it depends a lot on people and the school that they go to. A few of my friends in very highly competitive schools had people telling them wrong information, wrong dates for SACs, hoard resources, and in one case someone stole someone's notes before a SAC. I guess there's a lot more pressure to be the best in those schools compared to a school like mine (bottom 10% of the state) so I only noticed it a little bit within my own cohort.

Our teachers have always said that you are competing with the rest of the state for the best scores so I guess in a way VCE does encourage competitiveness amongst students.

Believe it or not, the wrong info thing still happens in uni biomed. Or people telling you that you did shit after asking you your grades. Or people picking on you for your ATAR. Or people telling others XYZ isn't assessed when it actually is. Or pouring concentrated H2SO4 on your lab book so you fail labs. Or people randomly reporting you and lecturing you about "respect" when you're rationally and respectfully outlining where you think an assessment is unfair just to make you look bad in front of the lecturers. I've seen it all and I'd suggest that if you're in biomed, treat everyone with a healthy dose of suspicion. Whereas in high school, the wrong SAC date/content trick was everywhere especially in the med/biomed prereq subjects like methods, bio and chem

[KenW]

Believe it or not, the wrong info thing still happens in uni biomed. Or people telling you that you did shit after asking you your grades. Or people picking on you for your ATAR. Or people telling others XYZ isn't assessed when it actually is. Or pouring concentrated H2SO4 on your lab book so you fail labs. Or people randomly reporting you and lecturing you about "respect" when you're rationally and respectfully outlining where you think an assessment is unfair just to make you look bad in front of the lecturers. I've seen it all and I'd suggest that if you're in biomed, treat everyone with a healthy dose of suspicion. Whereas in high school, the wrong SAC date/content trick was everywhere especially in the med/biomed prereq subjects like methods, bio and chem

Wow, that's insane. I went to a pretty good school, and even though a lot of subjects were competitive, I've never had people tell me the wrong day of a SAC/exam intentionally. People at school were generally very nice and people doing the same subjects as me would usually answer my questions.

In Biomed, I do agree how the system does favor hyper-competitiveness. Biomed is actually such a scummy degree for unis to offer, knowing that only a small number of people will get into medicine after doing biomedicine🤢. It's so flipping ironic, because doctors are supposed to help each other, and work in a team, yet biomedicine promotes the exact opposite of that. Biomedicine is just a money machine for the unis.

The content of the information in Biomed is actually reasonably fine, but I would never do it because of the majority of the cohort. You seem like a cool guy, Billuminati, and I have massive respect for you, for getting through and suceeding in Biomed. I personally think that the pressure would get to me, so I'd prefer to study dentistry at Latrobe as a backup to medicine, rather than biomedicine.

[tiredandstressed]

Believe it or not, the wrong info thing still happens in uni biomed. Or people telling you that you did shit after asking you your grades. Or people picking on you for your ATAR. Or people telling others XYZ isn't assessed when it actually is. Or pouring concentrated H2SO4 on your lab book so you fail labs. Or people randomly reporting you and lecturing you about "respect" when you're rationally and respectfully outlining where you think an assessment is unfair just to make you look bad in front of the lecturers. I've seen it all and I'd suggest that if you're in biomed, treat everyone with a healthy dose of suspicion. Whereas in high school, the wrong SAC date/content trick was everywhere especially in the med/biomed prereq subjects like methods, bio and chem

I am sorry this happened to you, but just wanted everyone to know that each individual's experience of Biomedicine will be different. I just graduated @ UoM as yes I agree biomedicine is very competitive, our lecturers always labelled us as a "smart cohort" and it was clear everyone wanted to medicine, but there simply is not enough spots available.
That being said, no in my cohort ever asked about my ATAR, nor have I cared about someone's ATAR, my closest friends still don't know what I actually got, simply high enough to get into Biomedicine.
Yes, there may be a few toxic people that I encountered in orientation who did flex their '99.95' which good for them, but they represent a minority of the cohort. I actually found my cohort very supportive, not competitive, we always reminded each other when an assignment was due so no one would forget and lose easy marks.
Not saying unimelb is best, because it definitely is not, but I think if you mingle with the right group of people you will definitely have a strong and supportive network that you can rely on.
As for marks, I really only told my close friends my marks, and again never would someone say "you did bad" or "lol you think your not good enough for med" who knows maybe there was a toxic minority, but I never witnessed such b*tchy behaviour, I did have a small group of friend but nonetheless, I defs don't think this petty behaviour is reflective of the biomedicine cohort, at the very least not what I experienced.

Or pouring concentrated H2SO4 on your lab book so you fail labs.

WTAF this is crazy and dangerous, I actually had a different experience, in my first chem lab I saw a student about to incorrectly mix the wrong chemicals, and I stopped him and told him what we were supposed to do, saving his lab report.
I haven't heard of a story like this in my cohort, so I think the experience might be unique to you, but that really is straight-up disgusting that this happening and it is almost 'normalised' that this competitiveness is justified.
So to people who are interested in biomedicine, yes I agree it is competitive but I doubt you will experience such extreme acts of competition, you do all your first-year subjects together so I found it easy to make friends (my first year, was in person) so don't be afraid to study this degree if you're genuinely interested in it
As for the question of this thread, I do think the ATAR system does not just encourage competitiveness but it normalizes it, sabotaging your own cohort won't do you any you good, but many people strive to be in the top ranks to achieve a high ATAR which drive too much pressure in an individual and lead to detrimental consequences to their physical health and mental wellbeing.

[SnekiSnek]

Believe it or not, the wrong info thing still happens in uni biomed. Or people telling you that you did shit after asking you your grades. Or people picking on you for your ATAR.

I always find it ironic when I hear people in university trying to put other people down for their ATAR. Especially if you are in the same course or degree because it shows that you're as capable as they are to complete the course and the uni puts you at the same level.

[somebody8442]

. Or pouring concentrated H2SO4 on your lab book so you fail labs.

Wow! Now that is competition at its peak!

[p0kem0n21]

This question has been bugging me for quite a while now. I have heard many stories of students that once they start their IA's, they slowly become hesitant in sharing knowledge/materials with other students as they're competing with the whole of year 12 cohort. Is this true? I mean a system that eradicates healthy collaboration? Something just doesn't seem right.
Interesting in hearing your thoughts.

At face value, the ATAR makes it seem like students are forced to compete with each other. After all, it is a ranking. Admittedly, I used to believe that competition was the core value of VCE back in year 9, and that really led me down a rocky road. Sure, you can comparatively good results, but your personal relationships do suffer. And those relationships and connections are likely much more valuable in comparison to the supposed ATAR gain of being hyper-competitive and toxic.

In fact, I would argue that being so competitive could actually detriment students in multiple ways. Anecdotally, I found that by being less competitive, my scores improved more and my friendships really shined, too.

1) Mental health + Performance: Seriously, the constant worry about how others are doing in comparison to yourself is simply unhealthy. You will never have a 100% accurate perception of other people's abilities. Plus, if you're that paranoid about their scores, you could even question whether their performances (e.g. Apparently he got x% on his exam...) are true or make-belief. I've had my fair share of people who both underestimate or overestimate their scores for whatever reason. In the end, I feel like the most valid and most productive way to measure your performance is simply relative to yourself. Since you are probably fairly confident that you know your scores, you can always find ways to improve yourself, which is effort well-invested. Additionally, if you keep on trying to do better than others, you somewhat set a glass ceiling for yourself. That is, your hope is to simply outdo someone else. In the end, this somewhat bars you from outdoing yourself and realising that you could achieve MUCH better results than your peers simply by self-introspection. Of course, in better schools, you'll generally have better points of comparison, but these individuals are likely still far from perfect.

2) Collaboration seems better: Something I found out this year is that collaborating with other students (particularly from your cohort) is much more beneficial than competing with them. For instance, my friend and I (who used to compete over virtually everything lol) created practice questions for biology this year, and that ended up mutually benefitting us. Group study sessions over lockdown (online!) were also helpful in discussing upcoming SAC problems and such. This still involves a small select group of people being "competitive" against the rest of the cohort, but there isn't any animosity shown towards others. Besides, if others wanted to join in, they certainly could! Studying harder/smarter than others without misleading them is fair and square, after all. Finally, for final exams, you preferably want your school cohort to achieve better in order to boost SAC scores and whatnot. Thus, collaboration during this period of time would also be beneficial. Overall, I felt that putting one's personal differences aside can really serve some useful benefits that not only benefit you, but your entire cohort.

(^oops just realised someone talked about collaboration already, my bad)

As for OTHER cohorts, I'd still argue that collaboration can benefit you, although this wouldn't be nearly as advantageous for final exams (where you'd want your cohort to do better than others). Helping each with your different SACs would be better, though.

And let's not even get started on the ethics of your actions. They will probably find their way back to you in some way or another...

The title is posed towards the ATAR as a system; however, I do find the discussions upon competition in university to be interesting. Why go to such lengths to sabotage others? Surely there must be some repercussions. I'm no snitch, but if someone pours sulfuric acid on my lab report, I think that is a line that has been GREATLY crossed. I'm not sure what professors/relevant staff could do about it, but that's behaviour which really should end by high school.
It seems mostly because everyone is 'desperate' (for lack of a better term) to get into a desired position where only limited spots are available, but I'd love to hear any other takes on it!

[Billuminati]

At face value, the ATAR makes it seem like students are forced to compete with each other. After all, it is a ranking. Admittedly, I used to believe that competition was the core value of VCE back in year 9, and that really led me down a rocky road. Sure, you can comparatively good results, but your personal relationships do suffer. And those relationships and connections are likely much more valuable in comparison to the supposed ATAR gain of being hyper-competitive and toxic.

In fact, I would argue that being so competitive could actually detriment students in multiple ways. Anecdotally, I found that by being less competitive, my scores improved more and my friendships really shined, too.

1) Mental health + Performance: Seriously, the constant worry about how others are doing in comparison to yourself is simply unhealthy. You will never have a 100% accurate perception of other people's abilities. Plus, if you're that paranoid about their scores, you could even question whether their performances (e.g. Apparently he got x% on his exam...) are true or make-belief. I've had my fair share of people who both underestimate or overestimate their scores for whatever reason. In the end, I feel like the most valid and most productive way to measure your performance is simply relative to yourself. Since you are probably fairly confident that you know your scores, you can always find ways to improve yourself, which is effort well-invested. Additionally, if you keep on trying to do better than others, you somewhat set a glass ceiling for yourself. That is, your hope is to simply outdo someone else. In the end, this somewhat bars you from outdoing yourself and realising that you could achieve MUCH better results than your peers simply by self-introspection. Of course, in better schools, you'll generally have better points of comparison, but these individuals are likely still far from perfect.

2) Collaboration seems better: Something I found out this year is that collaborating with other students (particularly from your cohort) is much more beneficial than competing with them. For instance, my friend and I (who used to compete over virtually everything lol) created practice questions for biology this year, and that ended up mutually benefitting us. Group study sessions over lockdown (online!) were also helpful in discussing upcoming SAC problems and such. This still involves a small select group of people being "competitive" against the rest of the cohort, but there isn't any animosity shown towards others. Besides, if others wanted to join in, they certainly could! Studying harder/smarter than others without misleading them is fair and square, after all. Finally, for final exams, you preferably want your school cohort to achieve better in order to boost SAC scores and whatnot. Thus, collaboration during this period of time would also be beneficial. Overall, I felt that putting one's personal differences aside can really serve some useful benefits that not only benefit you, but your entire cohort.

(^oops just realised someone talked about collaboration already, my bad)

As for OTHER cohorts, I'd still argue that collaboration can benefit you, although this wouldn't be nearly as advantageous for final exams (where you'd want your cohort to do better than others). Helping each with your different SACs would be better, though.

And let's not even get started on the ethics of your actions. They will probably find their way back to you in some way or another...

The title is posed towards the ATAR as a system; however, I do find the discussions upon competition in university to be interesting. Why go to such lengths to sabotage others? Surely there must be some repercussions. I'm no snitch, but if someone pours sulfuric acid on my lab report, I think that is a line that has been GREATLY crossed. I'm not sure what professors/relevant staff could do about it, but that's behaviour which really should end by high school.
It seems mostly because everyone is 'desperate' (for lack of a better term) to get into a desired position where only limited spots are available, but I'd love to hear any other takes on it!

Indeed collaboration is better. This is because it is Feynmann's technique at play. Basically it's the active studying technique where you teach others to consolidate your own understanding. If you know something well enough to explain it, you know it well enough for the exam. I noticed this personally because I scored higher in my chem electives where I'm actively helping the BSc kids than in my core biomed units where I'm more withdrawn in the group chats. I'll confess that although I tell myself that I won't help in the biomed group chats because I don't want to benefit the person who snitched on me to the lecturers (mentioned in my comment before), deep down I suspect that there's a subconscious competitive side of me who sees others biomed as rivals. I feel that in a competitive system, as long as this side of you stays subconscious ie you're not actively sabotaging others, then it's normal to have it since we're flawed humans after all.

I must also clarify that the majority of my interactions with others in biomed are overwhelmingly positive, it's just a few bad apple incidents that happened to me leaving me very suspicious of other biomedders.

[Unwonted]

Indeed collaboration is better. This is because it is Feynmann's technique at play. Basically it's the active studying technique where you teach others to consolidate your own understanding. If you know something well enough to explain it, you know it well enough for the exam. I noticed this personally because I scored higher in my chem electives where I'm actively helping the BSc kids than in my core biomed units where I'm more withdrawn in the group chats. I'll confess that although I tell myself that I won't help in the biomed group chats because I don't want to benefit the person who snitched on me to the lecturers (mentioned in my comment before), deep down I suspect that there's a subconscious competitive side of me who sees others biomed as rivals. I feel that in a competitive system, as long as this side of you stays subconscious ie you're not actively sabotaging others, then it's normal to have it since we're flawed humans after all.

I must also clarify that the majority of my interactions with others in biomed are overwhelmingly positive, it's just a few bad apple incidents that happened to me leaving me very suspicious of other biomedders.

We shouldn't hold any grudges though. Ruminating won't help either.

Besides, many professions require you to undergo psychological assessments. By committing these guilt-ridden acts: the perpetrators aren't putting themselves in a good position.

So - please - don't hold back on sharing your knowledge. Leave the rest to karma.

Have a jolly good Christmas

karma in a nutshell