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May 01, 2024, 11:32:22 am

Author Topic: Physics Practical - Motor effect Help  (Read 5126 times)  Share 

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MysteryMarker

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Physics Practical - Motor effect Help
« on: May 30, 2016, 06:02:30 pm »
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Hey Guys,

I have this upcoming physics practical which requires me to utilise the motor effect to calculate the magnetic field strength of a magnet.
Firstly, A magnet will be placed on a weight scale with a wire running shortly over it, held by two retort stands. These wires will be connected to a variable resistor which is then connected to a transformer in DC. As per the formula F = BILSin@ and F = ma, the magnetic field strength of the magnet can be calculated. A linear relationship should be obtained, however, if we do not get a linear relationship, what are some errors and improvements that are associated with this first hand investigation?

Thanks Peeps.

jamonwindeyer

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Re: Physics Practical - Motor effect Help
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2016, 07:14:40 pm »
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Hey Guys,

I have this upcoming physics practical which requires me to utilise the motor effect to calculate the magnetic field strength of a magnet.
Firstly, A magnet will be placed on a weight scale with a wire running shortly over it, held by two retort stands. These wires will be connected to a variable resistor which is then connected to a transformer in DC. As per the formula F = BILSin@ and F = ma, the magnetic field strength of the magnet can be calculated. A linear relationship should be obtained, however, if we do not get a linear relationship, what are some errors and improvements that are associated with this first hand investigation?

Thanks Peeps.

Hey MysteryMarker, welcome to the forums!!

That's a cool practical! Off the top of my head I can think of a few:

- Energy Loss in the Transformer. Besides using a better transformer, not much you can do to improve this, there is no such thing as an ideal transformer
- Precision of the weight scale could cause errors of half the smallest division (so for example, if the scale measures in grams, there would be half a gram of error). Again, improve with a better scale.
- Slight variations in magnetic field strength at different locations on the magnet may cause errors. Solution to this would be to conduct the experiment inside a constant magnetic field, instead of one that diminishes in strength over distance.
- Always suggest further repetition as an improvement to experimental design

Just a few ideas  ;D could you explain the prac a little more? Half because I'm curious and can't quite picture how it would work, and half because one I know I might be able to suggest some more  ;D

MysteryMarker

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Re: Physics Practical - Motor effect Help
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2016, 07:39:42 pm »
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Hey jamonwindeyer AKA the physics guru, thanks for helping me out with this prac!

I'll try to explain the practical a bit more in-depth, so:
A bar magnet is placed on an electronic scale. Two retort stands are placed on opposite sides of the scales that are connected to two boss heads. A conducting wire will be placed between the two retort stands, by hanging them through the boss heads  (with high tension so as to ensure an accurate 90 degree angle). This conducting wire is connected to a variable resistor, an ammeter and a transformer to complete a circuit. (Note: i made it sound like one wire, when its actually quite a few). Once a current runs through the conducting wire, as the magnetic field and direction of the current are perpendicular to each other, a maximum force will be experienced by the conductor. This will either increase or decrease the mass of the magnet as recorded by the electronic scale. By varying the resistance, and hence the independent variable, the current is changed. From the results obtained, we must calculate the value for magnetic field strength and hence graph Force vs Current. Should be a linear relationship, however whether it is linear or not gives me material to talk about reliability, validity and accuracy. I hope this helps you visualise the practical :P

I just got a few questions on the errors and improvements you mentioned:
- By power loss in the transformer, would this affect the practical i am performing as the current through the conductor will always be measured?(Sorry i forgot to mention that we have an ammeter in this practical in my previous comment)
-Would placing a magnet on an 'electronic' scale affect how it functions and maybe distort the value for the weight of the magnet by meddling with the electrical components of the scale?
-As the magnet is placed in a stationary position and is not moved, would this be considered as conducting the experiment in a 'constant' magnetic field?

Thanks Jamon! 

jamonwindeyer

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Re: Physics Practical - Motor effect Help
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2016, 08:13:05 pm »
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Hey jamonwindeyer AKA the physics guru, thanks for helping me out with this prac!

I'll try to explain the practical a bit more in-depth, so:
A bar magnet is placed on an electronic scale. Two retort stands are placed on opposite sides of the scales that are connected to two boss heads. A conducting wire will be placed between the two retort stands, by hanging them through the boss heads  (with high tension so as to ensure an accurate 90 degree angle). This conducting wire is connected to a variable resistor, an ammeter and a transformer to complete a circuit. (Note: i made it sound like one wire, when its actually quite a few). Once a current runs through the conducting wire, as the magnetic field and direction of the current are perpendicular to each other, a maximum force will be experienced by the conductor. This will either increase or decrease the mass of the magnet as recorded by the electronic scale. By varying the resistance, and hence the independent variable, the current is changed. From the results obtained, we must calculate the value for magnetic field strength and hence graph Force vs Current. Should be a linear relationship, however whether it is linear or not gives me material to talk about reliability, validity and accuracy. I hope this helps you visualise the practical :P

I just got a few questions on the errors and improvements you mentioned:
- By power loss in the transformer, would this affect the practical i am performing as the current through the conductor will always be measured?(Sorry i forgot to mention that we have an ammeter in this practical in my previous comment)
-Would placing a magnet on an 'electronic' scale affect how it functions and maybe distort the value for the weight of the magnet by meddling with the electrical components of the scale?
-As the magnet is placed in a stationary position and is not moved, would this be considered as conducting the experiment in a 'constant' magnetic field?

Thanks Jamon!

Ahhh okay, I'm with you now, I follow! A seriously cool prac, do you know what sorts of differences you're expecting in the mass of the magnet? I'd imagine even a large force on the wire will not do much at the magnet end, I kind of want to try this myself now aha  ;)

Okay, so with your clarifications:
- Yes, my transformer comment is actually invalid. The way you describe it, that transformer is there to both convert an AC signal to a DC signal (so, it must also contain a rectifier) and to step up the current to accentuate the motor effect. In any case, no error there if you are measuring with an ammeter through the conductor. You could add that an ammeter will cause a (negligible) change to the circuit, the equivalent of putting another tiny resistance in series with the variable one.
- Oh, I like it, definitely possible! But I'd wager that, unless it malfunctions completely, the difference would be negligible. Good thinking though!
- Not really, so basically the fact that you'll be using a bar magnet (or similar) means every point on the wire will experience a slightly different magnetic field strength, due to a slightly different angle with the field and distance from said magnet. So, the magnetic field you find would likely be the average strength of the field across the wire. It could throw some decently sized errors.

Beyond this, you can mention things like intolerances in the resistor and wiring (the wiring will have a small resistance, the variable resistor will likely have a 10% error either way). Even inaccuracy in acceleration due to gravity, a tilt in the scale,, rounding error, etc. For reliability, just keep saying repetition, that's what they'll want to hear  ;D For accuracy, you nailed it, the more linear the better (remember to ignore outlier results). I hope this helps a bit!

MysteryMarker

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Re: Physics Practical - Motor effect Help
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2016, 09:46:56 pm »
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Thanks a tonne man!

Sadly i do not know the differences in mass that will be observed, however, I'm sure it will be very minute probably less than a gram or so. :/

Extending on how the magnetic field strength will vary at differing distances: I understand that a bar magnet does not provide uniform magnetic field lines at any point around it, so by changing the relative distance between the magnet and conducting wire, a different value for magnetic field strength will be obtained. I was trying to brainstorm ways to improve this, and all i could come up with was a solenoid, and even that doesn't have uniform magnetic field lines i believe. Is there any actual way to provide a 'constant' magnetic field or is that just theoretical?

Also, although our conducting wires are insulated, would corrosion of the metal be an error? (IF it is possible with insulation) And to improve this, i assume cleaning it with emery paper would be an improvement?

Another question: When performing this experiment it would be wise to connect the ammeter in series 'after' the variable resistor but before the conductive wire enters the magnetic field. Or would it not matter if i place the ammeter in series directly after it has exited the magnetic field?

Appreciate the help ALOT! :P

jamonwindeyer

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Re: Physics Practical - Motor effect Help
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2016, 10:52:33 pm »
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Thanks a tonne man!

Sadly i do not know the differences in mass that will be observed, however, I'm sure it will be very minute probably less than a gram or so. :/

Extending on how the magnetic field strength will vary at differing distances: I understand that a bar magnet does not provide uniform magnetic field lines at any point around it, so by changing the relative distance between the magnet and conducting wire, a different value for magnetic field strength will be obtained. I was trying to brainstorm ways to improve this, and all i could come up with was a solenoid, and even that doesn't have uniform magnetic field lines i believe. Is there any actual way to provide a 'constant' magnetic field or is that just theoretical?

Also, although our conducting wires are insulated, would corrosion of the metal be an error? (IF it is possible with insulation) And to improve this, i assume cleaning it with emery paper would be an improvement?

Another question: When performing this experiment it would be wise to connect the ammeter in series 'after' the variable resistor but before the conductive wire enters the magnetic field. Or would it not matter if i place the ammeter in series directly after it has exited the magnetic field?

Appreciate the help ALOT! :P

It probably will be very small! Let me know, I'm quite curious to see, I've never heard of this experiment done in this way before  ;)

A perfectly uniform field is a little bit theoretical, but you can get a virtually constant field by popping two large permanent magnets above and below the conductor in your experiment. This creates a constant magnetic field between the magnets, kind of like how the electric field between two charged plates is constant. Slight variations could occur due to imperfections in the magnets, but for all intents and purposes, that would give a constant field. Not a very practical experimental though  ;)

That could be possible, but you can just chock that down to the resistance of the conductor itself. It's not non-zero, and corrosion would just mean that it is a bigger non-zero  :D

Anywhere you place the ammeter will read the same current, there are no non-linear elements to throw that for you. I would recommend you place it as far away from the magnet as possible, since ammeters rely on magnetic fields for measurement (effects would be negligible, but lots of negligible effects add to something noticeable in some cases)  ;D

Happy to help my friend!  :D

MysteryMarker

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Re: Physics Practical - Motor effect Help
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2016, 08:41:09 pm »
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Thanks for the information!

I've just got a few more questions about this practical, then i'm set for my upcoming task :P

Just to clarify, the variables for this experiment include:
Independent: The magnitude of the current running through the conductor.
Dependent: The magnitude of the force experience by the conductor. (Although we are measuring the force to calculate the magnetic field strength, it would still be force, correct?)

When drawing a line of best fit, would i extend it to the origin or just leave it at the first and last point?

Is it possible to get an accurate reading for the value of 'g' at their current location? If so, how?

Thanks heaps man! :)

jamonwindeyer

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Re: Physics Practical - Motor effect Help
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2016, 09:48:45 pm »
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Thanks for the information!

I've just got a few more questions about this practical, then i'm set for my upcoming task :P

Just to clarify, the variables for this experiment include:
Independent: The magnitude of the current running through the conductor.
Dependent: The magnitude of the force experience by the conductor. (Although we are measuring the force to calculate the magnetic field strength, it would still be force, correct?)

When drawing a line of best fit, would i extend it to the origin or just leave it at the first and last point?

Is it possible to get an accurate reading for the value of 'g' at their current location? If so, how?

Thanks heaps man! :)

Your variables are spot on! For a line of best fit, it is best not to extend it to the origin in most circumstances, but it does depend a little bit. If you are dealing with a linear relationship which you KNOW will hit the origin then it might be okay, a bit of a matter of interpretation really. I'd personally not extend it based on preference, but you do what you think seems best at the time  ;D

Accurate reading for g would be an experiment in itself, but quite simple. Lift a known mass with a force meter, and thus calculate the force required to lift a mass (that is, hold the mass stationary WITH the force meter and determine the force pulling down on the meter, this is the weight force). You then have weight and mass, with which you can find g. However, the error in the mass and the error in the force meter will likely mean that you just end up with 9.8 anyway, determining a realistic difference would require some more sophisticated equipment  ;D