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One Step at a Time

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1035 on: April 09, 2016, 02:49:31 pm »
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Hahah all good HLS, thanks for your help anyway  :D

If anyone has any tips on what to do about the topic sentences (starts a few posts back), I would be so so grateful if you could leave a post  :P

literally lauren

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1036 on: April 10, 2016, 01:52:44 pm »
+8
"essay, essay, essay..."



I'm a bit confused about how you would challenge throughout the essay instead of having a challenge paragraph. Would this plan work instead? I've listed what could be explored in each para.

Para 1: How individual acts of defiance are engaging
Para 2: How the greyness of morality is engaging
Para 3: How defiance humanises the characters and exposes readers to their darker, more selfish sides which makes it more engaging

Some new worries...
Does having all challenge paragraphs but 1 work? So in this case, 2 challenge paragraphs. (I've tried to base them on how the text can be engaging for different reasons)
I'm scared I'm going off topic with 3 challenge paragraphs!  :(

Okay, you seem a few steps ahead of the average student, so forgive me if this is just reinforcing what you already know but I figured I may as well go through the whole process for the benefit of others.

Let's backtrack a bit and return to the prompt for a second.

'It is individual acts of defiance that makes Stasiland so engaging. Discuss.'

What you definitely shouldn't do is completely agree or completely disagree with no challenging whatsoever. I'm guessing you probably already know this, but just to reinforce it... an essay structure like:
   P1: Miriam's defiance is very engaging to readers
   P2: The defiance characters show against the Stasi is also engaging
   P3: Funder engages readers by showing how characters can be defiant against laws and expectations
...or something like that would be incredibly flawed and weak. All of these "arguments" are basically boiling down to just 'YES. PROMPT IS RIGHT. LET ME REPEAT THAT AGAIN USING SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WORDS.' And that's... not a valid argument, let alone the kind of strong, well-supported points you're expected to construct at a VCE level. As such, complete agreement is a bad idea, and completely disagreeing is, if anything, even worse. For a prompt like this, it's really hard to argue 'No. Individual acts of resistance don't make Stasiland engaging' because how the hell do you show something doesn't lead to something else? What will invariably happen is that you'd end up 'topic dodging' by saying either:
       'No, it's the sense of camaraderie and perseverance that makes Stasiland engaging.'
or
       'No, the individual acts of defiance actually make Stasiland unrelatable because of how confronting they can be.
And in either case, you'd be neglecting to talk about a key element of the prompt because you'd've supplemented your own focus and effectively 'dodged' the topic. 100% disagreeing would mean that you'd have to stick with those key terms the whole way through and just continually talk about how they don't connect with one another, and that's a pretty unrealistic approach.

So we're left with the choice to either mostly agree, or mostly disagree. And let's assume we're mostly agreeing for this prompt seeing as that's probably the easiest interpretation to argue for in this case.

Here's what most students in the state would do:
   P1: Yes, the individual acts of resistance make the text engaging, and here's an example of that.
   P2: Yes, the individual acts of resistance make the text engaging, and here's another example of that.
   P3: However, the individual acts of resistance don't always make the text engaging, and here's an example of that.

But what are you left with at the end? Your conclusion has to try and pick up the pieces and tie things together into some semblance of a sensible interpretation, and if all you've done is let examples drive the discussion, you'll have very little chance to impress the assessors on the basis of your ideas.

My recommendation: you devise a contention that's more holistic, meaning that you have an overarching interpretation that contains a bit of a challenge but still expresses a clear point of view in response to the prompt.

The best way to do this is to use the following format:
'Although    X   , ultimately    Y   '
...whereby X = some form of challenge, and Y = your primary line of argumentation.

For that prompt above, for example, you might argue that:
Although the instances of defiance depicted in Stasiland complicate the text's portrayal of morality, ultimately these actions are an integral part of Funder's attempts to communicate her fascination with the engaging stories of those affected by the Wall.

Then, within each body paragraph, you explore how this is achieved. It's kind of like each individual B.P. will contain an element of 'challenging' the prompt, but you're also doing more than just blatantly agreeing/supporting it. When I was in Year 12, I used to like thinking of it as reconfiguring the prompt into a more substantive interpretive point - kind of like the assessors had provided this vague outline of an idea, and then I'd dismantled and rebuilt it into a proper contention :P

Now let's look at where your contention is at:
I didn't want my contention to simply be "Yes I agree." I wanted to be something along the lines of this : "Although individual acts of defiance make the text engaging, ultimately there are also other factors which render the text engaging in different ways."

Structurally, you've got the right idea, but if you want to mostly disagree, you need to do more than just say 'there's other stuff that makes the text engaging' because your argument hinges on EXAMPLES, not IDEAS!

Compare the following:
Defiance does make the text engaging, but it also complicates the notions of morality and justice throughout.
vs.
Defiance does make the text engaging, but defiance does other stuff too.

or
Defiance does make the text engaging, but this is primarily because of the context of that defiance and the fact that the characters being defiant do so for valid and justifiable reasons.
vs.
Defiance does make the text engaging, but there's other stuff that makes it engaging too.

I'm not saying your intro/contention has to be highly specific in terms of which evidence you'll explore; rather that you need to give us a sense of where your ideas are going. The challenge you've got is a good start, but if you are going to disagree, be careful not to turn the discussion into a topic dodge by saying 'no, and here's some different stuff.'

So the reason you may be a bit unsure of your topic sentences is that your contention runs the risk of veering into less than relevant territory. That's why, for the original T.S.s you listed, you'd be best to modify your second and third one to ensure you're still looking at the ideas of defiance and engaging-ness because every paragraph has to touch on both of those two ideas to some extent - even if you're disagreeing.

For these versions:
Para 1: How individual acts of defiance are engaging
Para 2: How the greyness of morality is engaging
Para 3: How defiance humanises the characters and exposes readers to their darker, more selfish sides which makes it more engaging
Few questions/notes:
   - How would paragraphs 1 and 3 differ; what would you talk about in 1 that wouldn't be covered by 3? It seems like there's a bit of overlap at the moment since 3 is almost like a subset of 1, so making 1 more specific might help avoid that potential redundancy
   - What's the connection between the greyness of morality and the notion of defiance? I know it exists, you know it exists, but if it's not in your T.S. then it's tough to judge what you've written as being accurate. (And there was probably a lot of thinking and planning in your head that you didn't explicitly give away in your T.S. which is totally fine, but I'm just making sure that you know what the assessors would need to see.)
   - It seems like you're agreeing more so than disagreeing here(?) though because you've listed general ideas rather than argumentative points (which is also totally fine for the sake of your own planning - I actually preferred doing it that way sometimes) I'm not 100% sure.
   - What you've got for 3 is a pretty strong point, but it doesn't really align with your current contention, so you'll have to make a decision as to which one you're going to alter.

And to address these concerns:
Does having all challenge paragraphs but 1 work? So in this case, 2 challenge paragraphs. (I've tried to base them on how the text can be engaging for different reasons)
I'm scared I'm going off topic with 3 challenge paragraphs!  :(
You can mostly challenge/disagree with prompts, but not all prompts would let you do this. You don't have to just agree as your default option because there will be other prompts that actively invite disagreement (eg. 'None of the characters in Stasiland are sympathetic. Discuss.')

But I think it will be more helpful if you go from thinking about essays in terms of:
- Contention: disagreeing with the prompt
- P1: agreeing with the prompt
- P2: challenging the prompt
- P3: challenging the prompt

...to...
- P1: backing up contention
- P2: backing up contention
- P3: backing up contention

The assessors want to see you mount a case for your interpretation, and simply agreeing/disagreeing is only the starting point for doing that, so if you're able to shift your mindset from thinking about 'prompt-->paragraphs' to 'prompt-->contention-->paragraphs,' you'll be in a much better position.

Let me know if any of that didn't make sense! :)

literally lauren

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1037 on: April 10, 2016, 03:28:23 pm »
0
can anyone suggest any topics that I can do my oral presentation on? I wanted to do something that would interest my class therefore I'm trying to avoid the common topics that come up every year like lowering the driving age, vaccinations etc.
Thanks!

See: here.

It can be good to avoid the really overdone topics that teachers are just utterly sick of, but you don't necessarily have to dodge anything that's remotely popular. Common topics can still be presented upon in an interesting and persuasive, manner if you're interested in the subject matter :)

knightrider

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1038 on: April 11, 2016, 02:29:28 am »
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what would be some good things to analyse in this image?(issue is about the guilty verdict of drug taking and subsequent 12 month banning of essendon players and whether this is fair or not )

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/36391f6e4fb4c38801fa9bd100d4e747?width=650


Cornrow Kenny

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1039 on: April 11, 2016, 09:20:22 pm »
+1
what would be some good things to analyse in this image?(issue is about the guilty verdict of drug taking and subsequent 12 month banning of essendon players and whether this is fair or not )

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/36391f6e4fb4c38801fa9bd100d4e747?width=650
Personally I think the illustrator is implying how the punishment was not harsh enough - The AFL are saying Essendon are "cleared for take off" (they can still play) despite ASADA in possession of evidence (the briefcases), that proves they were guilty of doping.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 09:36:57 pm by Cornrow Kenny »
15'/16' VCE - 96.55
17'- Bachelor of Commerce (University of Melbourne)

kimmytaaa

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1040 on: April 12, 2016, 09:16:36 am »
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need help with my oral

literally lauren

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1041 on: April 12, 2016, 02:20:59 pm »
+1
what would be some good things to analyse in this image?(issue is about the guilty verdict of drug taking and subsequent 12 month banning of essendon players and whether this is fair or not )

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/36391f6e4fb4c38801fa9bd100d4e747?width=650

Disclaimer: I know nothing about football and have been deliberately ignoring all these drug sagas because sportspeople on performance enhancing drugs are way less interesting than sportspeople on hallucinogenic drugs, so I don't care. Hence, this may be a radical misinterpretation of whatever is going on at the moment...

I get the sense the cartoonist is mocking the AFL somewhat since the guy in the control tower is like 'yep, you're all good' and yet we can see that the plane is full of holes and isn't really in any state to fly (i.e. the team's legal defence is 'full of holes' because of how inadequate it is; thus the team is in no state to 'fly'/ play footy.) But whether this reflects worse on the team or the AFL... I'll leave that for you to decide since I'm not entirely sure where the culpability lies in this case. As for the ASADA rep. in the foreground, I definitely agree with Cornrow in that the stuff spilling out of his briefcase would seem to indicate the fact that there's so much evidence against Essendon that it literally can't be contained by ASADA. You might even analyse how that figure looks somewhat incredulous at the idea of the plane being able to take off despite the mountain of evidence he has that suggests they shouldn't be flying/playing. That said, if the efficacy of ASADA is at all relevant to this issue, you may also be able to critique how this guy is rocking up late with briefcases spilling everywhere as an indictment of his own ineptitude --> ∴ Essendon being allowed to play is partially the fault of ASADA's inability to mount a strong enough case (???)

^ignore anything that seems wrong or unsubstantiated here - can't stress enough just how little I know about this story. Seriously, I thought the Fitzroy team still existed until, like, two weeks ago :3

need help with my oral
What exactly do you need help with?

knightrider

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1042 on: April 13, 2016, 03:34:01 am »
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Personally I think the illustrator is implying how the punishment was not harsh enough - The AFL are saying Essendon are "cleared for take off" (they can still play) despite ASADA in possession of evidence (the briefcases), that proves they were guilty of doping.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about football and have been deliberately ignoring all these drug sagas because sportspeople on performance enhancing drugs are way less interesting than sportspeople on hallucinogenic drugs, so I don't care. Hence, this may be a radical misinterpretation of whatever is going on at the moment...

I get the sense the cartoonist is mocking the AFL somewhat since the guy in the control tower is like 'yep, you're all good' and yet we can see that the plane is full of holes and isn't really in any state to fly (i.e. the team's legal defence is 'full of holes' because of how inadequate it is; thus the team is in no state to 'fly'/ play footy.) But whether this reflects worse on the team or the AFL... I'll leave that for you to decide since I'm not entirely sure where the culpability lies in this case. As for the ASADA rep. in the foreground, I definitely agree with Cornrow in that the stuff spilling out of his briefcase would seem to indicate the fact that there's so much evidence against Essendon that it literally can't be contained by ASADA. You might even analyse how that figure looks somewhat incredulous at the idea of the plane being able to take off despite the mountain of evidence he has that suggests they shouldn't be flying/playing. That said, if the efficacy of ASADA is at all relevant to this issue, you may also be able to critique how this guy is rocking up late with briefcases spilling everywhere as an indictment of his own ineptitude --> ∴ Essendon being allowed to play is partially the fault of ASADA's inability to mount a strong enough case (???)

^ignore anything that seems wrong or unsubstantiated here - can't stress enough just how little I know about this story. Seriously, I thought the Fitzroy team still existed until, like, two weeks ago :3
What exactly do you need help with?

Thanks so much literally lauren  :) and Cornrow Kenny  :). Really appreciate it !!

kimmytaaa

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1043 on: April 13, 2016, 08:33:27 am »
0
Disclaimer: I know nothing about football and have been deliberately ignoring all these drug sagas because sportspeople on performance enhancing drugs are way less interesting than sportspeople on hallucinogenic drugs, so I don't care. Hence, this may be a radical misinterpretation of whatever is going on at the moment...

I get the sense the cartoonist is mocking the AFL somewhat since the guy in the control tower is like 'yep, you're all good' and yet we can see that the plane is full of holes and isn't really in any state to fly (i.e. the team's legal defence is 'full of holes' because of how inadequate it is; thus the team is in no state to 'fly'/ play footy.) But whether this reflects worse on the team or the AFL... I'll leave that for you to decide since I'm not entirely sure where the culpability lies in this case. As for the ASADA rep. in the foreground, I definitely agree with Cornrow in that the stuff spilling out of his briefcase would seem to indicate the fact that there's so much evidence against Essendon that it literally can't be contained by ASADA. You might even analyse how that figure looks somewhat incredulous at the idea of the plane being able to take off despite the mountain of evidence he has that suggests they shouldn't be flying/playing. That said, if the efficacy of ASADA is at all relevant to this issue, you may also be able to critique how this guy is rocking up late with briefcases spilling everywhere as an indictment of his own ineptitude --> ∴ Essendon being allowed to play is partially the fault of ASADA's inability to mount a strong enough case (???)

^ignore anything that seems wrong or unsubstantiated here - can't stress enough just how little I know about this story. Seriously, I thought the Fitzroy team still existed until, like, two weeks ago :3
What exactly do you need help with?
Hi Lauren
ill PM you

One Step at a Time

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1044 on: April 13, 2016, 02:21:18 pm »
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You are incredible Lauren, thank you so much! I think I understand the gist of what you're saying and hopefully that'll carry through to my writing  :D

So it'd be wiser to have the contention itself as a sort of challenge, rather than having challenge paragraphs for less topic dodging and potential contradiction?  :P

But now I'm confused about how to change my contention so that my 3rd topic sentence can stay as a topic sentence! From there, how would you divide the contention into the 3 arguments/ form 3 topic sentences so that there is a new idea in each paragraph. Basically, I just want to say that by making the contention a challenge, how do I go about finding 3 topic sentences which support it?

Thanks once again Lauren  :D One step closer hahah


knightrider

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1045 on: April 13, 2016, 08:18:00 pm »
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In a language analysis is it still possible to achieve a 9 or 10 without mentioning tone at all?

Champ101

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1046 on: April 14, 2016, 07:38:01 am »
+3
In a language analysis is it still possible to achieve a 9 or 10 without mentioning tone at all?

Hey knightrider, there is no prerequisite to mention tone - examiners expect you to reflect and express your understanding on the methods, meta-language and techniques used to persuade the reader to share his point of view and why he uses specific language. For instance a shift in tone is just one of the many techniques.
 Incidentally, I would say that it's not worth commenting on tone and plucking out a memorised word unless it's relevant, however, it's still important to give those nitpicky assessors an opportunity to give you marks, so if you find the piece isn't overtly or clearly Vitriolic or lacking in loaded language, just comment on a few instances here and there. Also, to avoid your piece from appearing formulaic i.e. 'in an opinion piece entitle ... John smith asserts in a didactic tone...' try and turn your tonal words into adverbs - for example - 'John smith didactically emphasises the importance of... and then continue with how he tries to position his readership - 'evoking feelings of guilt to corall the reader into...
English [50]
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literally lauren

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1047 on: April 14, 2016, 08:23:30 am »
+5
So it'd be wiser to have the contention itself as a sort of challenge, rather than having challenge paragraphs for less topic dodging and potential contradiction?  :P
YES!!! ^THIS x 107%

But now I'm confused about how to change my contention so that my 3rd topic sentence can stay as a topic sentence! From there, how would you divide the contention into the 3 arguments/ form 3 topic sentences so that there is a new idea in each paragraph. Basically, I just want to say that by making the contention a challenge, how do I go about finding 3 topic sentences which support it?
K, so it's a bit of a shift in thinking, but look at it this way:
Once you turn the prompt into your contention, you don't need the prompt anymore!
From that point on, your whole essay (esp. your T.S.s) are geared towards supporting that contention.


So it's kind of like your T.S.s will 'agree' with your contention, if you want to think of it that way. And you never 'disagree' with your contention because that would be silly. You can have the occasional line within your B.P.s like 'Though one may interpret Character X's actions as a form of weakness, the author seems to celebrate his unique strength in the form of resilience in seemingly impossible circumstances...' where you acknowledge potential alternate interpretations, but the main gist of your argument will always be geared towards your primary point.

General rule: to turn your contention into three (or more) sub-arguments, you need to make three (or more) assertions that support this main point.

For example:
Prompt: In Stasiland, no character is immune from the effects of the Wall. Discuss.
Contention: Although the characters in Stasiland are irrefutably altered by the social climate of Germany and the sense of division that pervaded the nation, ultimately, these effects manifest themselves in vastly different ways, and it is this variation in how they respond to their circumstances which Funder propounds to be a true test of character.
Paragraph 1: The Wall's physical presence inhibits characters' freedom and right to self-determination, and even after the Wall is gone, the sense of a lingering divide is palpable.
Paragraph 2: However, the Wall also takes a psychological toll, particularly for those characters who
Paragraph 3: Moreover, Funder reveals how the Wall became a metonym for national division and the source of the characters' suffering, making it virtually impossible to escape.
Conclusion: Hence, by associating the Wall as an enforcer of isolation and detachment, Funder implies that it is only once characters are able to reconcile with one another, as well as their pasts, that they can hope to overcome the ramifications it had on their lives.

Note this is by no means the only way to break down this contention, nor is this contention the only plausible way to argue this prompt. Plus, as I kind of mentioned before, it can be difficult to get a sense of someone's rationale for their argument when you're only being given glimpses into parts of their essay, but as another general rule:
If you read the {intro + topic sentences + concluding sentences + conclusion} of someone's essay, you should know exactly what they're arguing, and there should be no glaring contraditions. You don't have to know why they're arguing it (i.e. if you can still say 'prove it!' at the end of every T.S. that's a good thing because it'll be the goal that paragraph needs to accomplish by using evidence.) If, however, you do read the whole paragraph and feel as though the points haven't been substantiated, that's where the B.P. discussion has failed in what it set out to do.

Basically, the above breakdown makes sense to me, but that's at least partially because I wrote it :P So if it doesn't make total sense to you, don't stress; the bulk of the discussion is where I'd need to justify everything I've outlined, and so long as you've got a sense for the direction of the argument, you should be okay :)

Thanks once again Lauren  :D One step closer hahah
That's the spirit!

In a language analysis is it still possible to achieve a 9 or 10 without mentioning tone at all?
As Champ mentioned, you absolutely can. But you shouldn't plan to leave out tone because it's 'unimportant.' It can still be helpful in scoring highly, especially if you're able to combine tonal analysis with some other analysis of language (i.e. the author uses an aspirational tone coupled with superlative language in describing that "Australians [could be] the best in the world" at fighting corruption, thus encouraging readers to strive for this "best" case scenario wherein their country is renowned for its strong stance against fraud and malfeasance.)

knightrider

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1048 on: April 15, 2016, 12:49:26 am »
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Hey knightrider, there is no prerequisite to mention tone - examiners expect you to reflect and express your understanding on the methods, meta-language and techniques used to persuade the reader to share his point of view and why he uses specific language. For instance a shift in tone is just one of the many techniques.
 Incidentally, I would say that it's not worth commenting on tone and plucking out a memorised word unless it's relevant, however, it's still important to give those nitpicky assessors an opportunity to give you marks, so if you find the piece isn't overtly or clearly Vitriolic or lacking in loaded language, just comment on a few instances here and there. Also, to avoid your piece from appearing formulaic i.e. 'in an opinion piece entitle ... John smith asserts in a didactic tone...' try and turn your tonal words into adverbs - for example - 'John smith didactically emphasises the importance of... and then continue with how he tries to position his readership - 'evoking feelings of guilt to corall the reader into...


As Champ mentioned, you absolutely can. But you shouldn't plan to leave out tone because it's 'unimportant.' It can still be helpful in scoring highly, especially if you're able to combine tonal analysis with some other analysis of language (i.e. the author uses an aspirational tone coupled with superlative language in describing that "Australians [could be] the best in the world" at fighting corruption, thus encouraging readers to strive for this "best" case scenario wherein their country is renowned for its strong stance against fraud and malfeasance.)

Thanks so much Champ101 and literally lauren for your repsonses !! :)

Yakooza123

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Re: VCE English Question Thread
« Reply #1049 on: April 15, 2016, 04:15:46 pm »
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Need help tackling this prompt: "When confronted by Conflict, it is always better to take a side". Any advice would be of much appreciation.