ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => VCE Mathematics => VCE Mathematics/Science/Technology => VCE Subjects + Help => VCE Specialist Mathematics => Topic started by: Natters on October 11, 2011, 05:23:27 pm
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My spesh teacher found me today to tell me she'd heard that it will be getting marked up "elevenish" instead of the expected 8, she said it was reliable and seemed sure of it but im very skeptic, anyone else heard something about this?
edit:
just adding this for people who view the thread for shits and giggles
a few people have said it's likely to go up due to the specialist students not being compared to the year 11 methods students (who are generally higher achievers) in the past, which is beginning this year, or smth like that;
heres this guy explaining it better than i could
sros-
Take this as a grain of salt, as it is derived from reading and hearsay...
From what I can gather; scaling works on a principle of comparing the relative raw scores of all of the subjects every student within a subjects cohort (eg: spesh) undertakes, thus allowing them to come to a conclusion as to the difficulty of the subject (spesh).
For example, within Spesh they notice that the cohort of spesh is considered 'smart' as much of the students who get a 30+ raw in spesh get low-mid 40's in their other subjects. Hence it can be gathered that spesh must be 'difficult' and using modelling they can accurately determine this 'difficulty' from using each individual students data and hence scale the subject according.
(This is also as to the reason why scaling differs slightly each year, as the cohort is as a mean slightly differing in 'intelligence' each year)
For the 3 maths though, they never include the subjects the student undertook in year 11 (most often methods) to assist in this calculation of 'difficulty'; this is crucial as most specialist students go quite well in methods in year 11, and by not including this high score they are in a way decreasing the 'mean' intelligence of the spesh cohort.
Hence, since this 'mean intelligence' was slightly lower since not including methods, the scaling for spesh was scaling slightly lower than if they had included this methods score.
Thus now that they are including methods, it is predicted (using their modelling) that the 'mean intelligence' of the cohort will rise, hence leading to the subject appearing more difficult (the intelligence of the cohort suddenly rises but the average scores will be the same this year from the last) meaning that theoretically (and based from their modelling) the mean will now rise from 38 scaled, to 41 scaled.
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This is true. My class was informed by our spesh teacher today. A 30 will be scaled to around 41 since apparently they haven't been considering Year 11 MM 3/4 study scores when scaling.
So great news for us. :D
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You realise that you cant predetermine how much a subject will scale by?
It depends on all the stats etc as it is compared to other subjects and what not.
But yeh lets hope it goes up 12? XD
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oooh thats a confirmation
this pleases me =)
and there can still be estimates afaik
score!
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LOL,
this is completely false.
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Mods.
Close thread and ban/
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I also had some information from our teacher today about the proposed change, it is quite brief, but here is the information:
http://www.vtac.edu.au/pdf/publications/bulletins/bulletin4-11.pdf
Edit, for those to lazy to read!:
"Modelling indicates the changes are likely to increase the scaled mean of Specialist Mathematics by
approximately three, with no observable effect on other subjects."
"VTAC will implement these changes in December 2011 for the
scaling of VCE studies for the calculation of the 2011 ATAR."
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Of course it's not definite, but predictions are made by an official source:
"Modelling indicates the changes are likely to increase the scaled mean of Specialist Mathematics by
approximately three, with no observable effect on other subjects."
*shrugs* I'm happy with that...
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HOLY FUCKING SHIT/
<3 DIS SHIIET.
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Oh wow... it might just scale by 11 this year... :)
If this doesnt affect the scaling of other subject study scores, does that mean specialist students will have an advantage over non-specialist students - as in they will have an edge aggregate wise?
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Why specialist ? Many say spesh is getting easier and methods is getting harder ? Mind you I didnt bother reading the article.
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because there is some correlation between more students doing all three maths now, so that they can scale them against each other or something like that - im not too sure either.
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:D
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I came.
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Take this as a grain of salt, as it is derived from reading and hearsay...
From what I can gather; scaling works on a principle of comparing the relative raw scores of all of the subjects every student within a subjects cohort (eg: spesh) undertakes, thus allowing them to come to a conclusion as to the difficulty of the subject (spesh).
For example, within Spesh they notice that the cohort of spesh is considered 'smart' as much of the students who get a 30+ raw in spesh get low-mid 40's in their other subjects. Hence it can be gathered that spesh must be 'difficult' and using modelling they can accurately determine this 'difficulty' from using each individual students data and hence scale the subject according.
(This is also as to the reason why scaling differs slightly each year, as the cohort is as a mean slightly differing in 'intelligence' each year)
For the 3 maths though, they never include the subjects the student undertook in year 11 (most often methods) to assist in this calculation of 'difficulty'; this is crucial as most specialist students go quite well in methods in year 11, and by not including this high score they are in a way decreasing the 'mean' intelligence of the spesh cohort.
Hence, since this 'mean intelligence' was slightly lower since not including methods, the scaling for spesh was scaling slightly lower than if they had included this methods score.
Thus now that they are including methods, it is predicted (using their modelling) that the 'mean intelligence' of the cohort will rise, hence leading to the subject appearing more difficult (the intelligence of the cohort suddenly rises but the average scores will be the same this year from the last) meaning that theoretically (and based from their modelling) the mean will now rise from 38 scaled, to 41 scaled.
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Take this as a grain of salt, as it is derived from reading and hearsay...
From what I can gather; scaling works on a principle of comparing the relative raw scores of all of the subjects every student within a subjects cohort (eg: spesh) undertakes, thus allowing them to come to a conclusion as to the difficulty of the subject (spesh).
For example, within Spesh they notice that the cohort of spesh is considered 'smart' as much of the students who get a 30+ raw in spesh get low-mid 40's in their other subjects. Hence it can be gathered that spesh must be 'difficult' and using modelling they can accurately determine this 'difficulty' from using each individual students data and hence scale the subject according.
(This is also as to the reason why scaling differs slightly each year, as the cohort is as a mean slightly differing in 'intelligence' each year)
For the 3 maths though, they never include the subjects the student undertook in year 11 (most often methods) to assist in this calculation of 'difficulty'; this is crucial as most specialist students go quite well in methods in year 11, and by not including this high score they are in a way decreasing the 'mean' intelligence of the spesh cohort.
Hence, since this 'mean intelligence' was slightly lower since not including methods, the scaling for spesh was scaling slightly lower than if they had included this methods score.
Thus now that they are including methods, it is predicted (using their modelling) that the 'mean intelligence' of the cohort will rise, hence leading to the subject appearing more difficult (the intelligence of the cohort suddenly rises but the average scores will be the same this year from the last) meaning that theoretically (and based from their modelling) the mean will now rise from 38 scaled, to 41 scaled.
Yep, sounds right to be.
In a 3 sentence summary (if you don't wanna read what sros has said so well :) ):
Basically;
- They didn't take into account the kids who do Methods in Year 11 and then Spesh in Year 12
- Because these kids are usually quite proficient in maths, the scaling/difficulty wasn't modelled correctly
- Because of this, they are predicting (with quite a good degree of certainty by the sounds of it) that the scaling will rise by 3 for the mean score of 30, so that it will now rise from last years scaled score of 38 to a new scaled score of 41.
WOO HOO.
On a side note, I'd think this would have little effect on aggregate vs ATAR, it still is only a relatively small percentage of the year 12 cohort...
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This is confusing... Don't worry about the scaling, just do your best. (:
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Haha if this is true then it will be awesome :P
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http://www.vtac.edu.au/pdf/stats/2006-2007/2006_2007_Section_H.pdf
These are the scalings for the year that it went from 30 -> 41...
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:O a 50 goes to 55!! :D
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http://www.vtac.edu.au/pdf/stats/2006-2007/2006_2007_Section_H.pdf
These are the scalings for the year that it went from 30 -> 41...
I don't think that makes complete sense as a comparison. If the subject scaled mean increases by 3, you would expect the scaling at the higher end (i.e. 50 study scores) to be increased by a minimal amount. Last year a 50 went to 51.6. Hence, theoretically, with this subject mean increase of 3, the maximum scaling would be to 54.6 (it should be much lower than this though). However, in 2006, it went to 55. Thus, I don't think the scaling can be accurately predicted (for scores at both the higher and lower ends) as of yet, but we shall see.
Nonetheless, this news of scaling is exciting! It allows me to get a slightly lower study score on Eng Lang for the same ATAR :D Yay!!
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http://www.vtac.edu.au/pdf/stats/2006-2007/2006_2007_Section_H.pdf
These are the scalings for the year that it went from 30 -> 41...
I don't think that makes complete sense as a comparison. If the subject scaled mean increases by 3, you would expect the scaling at the higher end (i.e. 50 study scores) to be increased by a minimal amount. Last year a 50 went to 51.6. Hence, theoretically, with this subject mean increase of 3, the maximum scaling would be to 54.6 (it should be much lower than this though). However, in 2006, it went to 55. Thus, I don't think the scaling can be accurately predicted (for scores at both the higher and lower ends) as of yet, but we shall see.
Nonetheless, this news of scaling is exciting! It allows me to get a slightly lower study score on Eng Lang for the same ATAR :D Yay!!
Yeah I know what you mean, I was just basing it on the fact that the mean and scaling were the same. Why did it go to 55 then though? And maybe it is 54.6 rounded up, let's hope :P
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as i said, im highly skeptical, but its nice new nonetheless :)
edit: lmfao at that imperative delete and ban call
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/There will be transition arrangements for current Year 12
students who completed studies in Year 11 in 2010 and
which were scaled using the 2010 procedures. These
students will have their 2010 scores re-scaled using the
revised procedure and will receive the higher of the two
scaled scores for the calculation of their 2011 ATAR./ -vcaa
WOW.... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hopefully higher!!!!
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read the article, but it wasn't clear to me whether the transition arrangements are just of maths subjects completed by 2011 students in 2010 or for all subjects?
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Happy days.
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This is true. My class was informed by our spesh teacher today. A 30 will be scaled to around 41 since apparently they haven't been considering Year 11 MM 3/4 study scores when scaling.
So great news for us. :D
I was there when this happen and can confirm that, according to our spesh teacher, VCAA VTAC "forgot" to include 3/4 MM results from year 11 when scaling spesh for the past 4 years.
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Scaling is determined by VTAC - not VCAA
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This is true. My class was informed by our spesh teacher today. A 30 will be scaled to around 41 since apparently they haven't been considering Year 11 MM 3/4 study scores when scaling.
So great news for us. :D
I was there when this happen and can confirm that, according to our spesh teacher, VCAA VTAC "forgot" to include 3/4 MM results from year 11 when scaling spesh for the past 4 years.
it's so bizarre... how can they forget.... does that mean past students who took spesh ended up with an 'unfair' score?
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okay, I don't do spesh, but am concerned (as most non-speshers probably are)
does this mean spesh will once again scale up to 54-55?
if so, then the aggregate vs atar table will be fucked,
just a quick comparison, a 99.7 last year was a 99.5 in 2007
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okay, I don't do spesh, but am concerned (as most non-speshers probably are)
does this mean spesh will once again scale up to 54-55?
if so, then the aggregate vs atar table will be fucked,
how come?
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i'd also love to know how they just "forgot" to factor in the yr11's, i mean surely it was deliberate with some outdated reasoning?
and @ zebra im pretty sure i know what he means but i dare not explain it cause im not reliable =p
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i'd also love to know how they just "forgot" to factor in the yr11's, i mean surely it was deliberate with some outdated reasoning?
and @ zebra im pretty sure i know what he means but i dare not explain it cause im not reliable =p
is he referring to the year when 99.95 was over 210? (which meant that you had to take spesh)
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i'd also love to know how they just "forgot" to factor in the yr11's, i mean surely it was deliberate with some outdated reasoning?
and @ zebra im pretty sure i know what he means but i dare not explain it cause im not reliable =p
is he referring to the year when 99.95 was over 210? (which meant that you had to take spesh)
and the aggregates needed for other atars will be higher.
a lot of the high end scores are made up of people who do spesh.
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i'd also love to know how they just "forgot" to factor in the yr11's, i mean surely it was deliberate with some outdated reasoning?
and @ zebra im pretty sure i know what he means but i dare not explain it cause im not reliable =p
is he referring to the year when 99.95 was over 210? (which meant that you had to take spesh)
and the aggregates needed for other atars will be higher.
a lot of the high end scores are made up of people who do spesh.
So are you saying that this new scaling system will benefit the spesh students? Isn't the whole point of scaling to make the system fair? (I'm asking coz I actually don't understand where you are coming from)
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im just sulking over the fact that I will have to get a higher aggregate to get the same atar score now.
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This benefits spesh students and will increase the aggregates required for certain ATARs, especially at the higher end. It is making the system "fair" for those who are doing spesh and sort of helps us in overtaking the aggregates of those who do not do spesh.
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Think of it this way, is has been unfair for those who took spesh in the last couple of years as it didn't scale by as much as it should have been scaling by. They are correcting it to make it fair.
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Think of it this way, is has been unfair for those who took spesh in the last couple of years as it didn't scale by as much as it should have been scaling by. They are correcting it to make it fair.
LOL I agree but at the same time unfair to the past spesh students. I still find VTAC making a mistake bizarre. It's not good enough ...
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i don't want to sound whiny or anything but.. either way it was unfair to somebody get it right people!
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Think of it this way, is has been unfair for those who took spesh in the last couple of years as it didn't scale by as much as it should have been scaling by. They are correcting it to make it fair.
so does this mean there have been several illegitimate 99.95'ers meaning scholarships to medicine, law, etc. were wrongly handed out?
this has terrible consequences for many people who may have been border line. Such a frightfully blatant mistake on their part.
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Well participation in spesh numbers has been going down over the last few years, meaning less and less of the top end scores are students doing spesh (although i am sure there are still a lot there); hence with less people i would assume it wont be 2007 type agg/atars; in saying that though im sure this modification will change things slightly, thankfully this has come at the best time for those currently doing spesh, just the sort of boost i needed to rev up study before the exam.
Also, it is very ambiguous, but perhaps the increase of the scaled mean by 3 will have a lesser effect on the higher end scores; so that for those getting say a 40 raw only get an extra 1.5-2 and those up at 50 only get an extra 0.5-1ish, meaning that a 50 will still only scale to a 52/52.5ish?
As a side note, it didn't say that they forgot (did it), more re-revised an outdated policy where they didnt include year 11 scores for scaling calculations because back when the system was implemented only around 11% of students did a 3/4 in year 11, nowadays its more like 50% so they have decided to re-revise....tbh I simply see this a ploy to encourage students back into spesh
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LOL JDog calm down mate!
And don't call them "illegitimate," that's not very nice and doesn't do them justice. These guys have worked exhaustively, you don't want to discount that.
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LOL JDog calm down mate!
And don't call them "illegitimate," that's not very nice and doesn't do them justice. These guys have worked exhaustively, you don't want to discount that.
I am not discounting their hardwork, I am saying that some people who got 99.90 maybe should have gotten 99.95 if their spesh scores scaled up like they have apparently supposed to have been.
As a consequence there might have been some 99.95ers pushed down to 99.90
In no way am I saying they haven't worked for it, but ultimately, they simply shouldn't have gotten the 99.95 if in fact this mistake has been made.
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or do Latin as well and you're all g
lololol playing the system waddup!
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I think the question is: Is spesh really that hard of a subject to get scaled up 11. I honestly think that the effort you need to put in to get a 30 in spesh is lesser than the effort needed to get a 41 in another subject. But that's just me.
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I think the question is: Is spesh really that hard of a subject to get scaled up 11. I honestly think that the effort you need to put in to get a 30 in spesh is lesser than the effort needed to get a 41 in another subject. But that's just me.
Agreed. But hey, I'm not complaining :)
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yeah I agree ^ ^
biology raw 41 > spesh raw 30
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<increase in difficulty
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yeah our vce coordinator mentioned something of the like, she got an email that she forwarded to us. have a read if its relevant I got bored half way
In April 2011 VTAC commissioned Professor Tim Brown,the original architect of the current scaling process for VCE studies, and Mr Bob Edwards, former Executive Officer, ACT Board of Senior Secondary Studies to undertake the technical review. The review found that since the current scaling method was introduced in 1994, the proportion of students completing one or more VCE studies while in Year 11 has grown from 16% to 53%. In 2010 approximately 4,000 Year 12 students receiving an ATAR had completed two or more studies in Year 11, almost 10% of the ATAR cohort. The current scaling
methodology does not make use of this information. The review also found that since 2007, when the VCAA removed the limit on the number of mathematics studies that can be counted towards the VCE, enrolment patterns in mathematics have changed. There has been a 21% increase in students completing Further Mathematics, but the number completing Specialist Mathematics has decreased by 16% and the number completing Mathematical Methods has decreased by 6%. Over the same period, the number of students completing all three VCE mathematics has increased incrementally from fewer than 50 to over 700.
There have also been changes in the scaling outcomes for mathematics. The scaled mean for Specialist Mathematics has gradually decreased from 41 to 38 since 2006 and Further Mathematics has increased by 1, from 27 to 28. Mathematical Methods has remained relatively stable. In light of these changing enrolment patterns and scaling outcomes, the review recommended that:
• The scaling population should continue to comprise students with at least four study scores including an English, but it should be expanded to include all studies completed in the previous year, rather than limiting it to one, as is currently the case. This will increase the number of students and study results contributing to the scaling outcomes.
• The scaling of mathematics should be simplified so that it scales all three mathematics concurrently against each other rather than the two-step pairwise scaling between Further Mathematics and Mathematical Methods and between Mathematical Methods and Specialist Mathematics.
There are now sufficient numbers of students completing the three mathematics studies to use a modified form of the standard scaling method that is used for all other studies.
Modelling undertaken as part of the review suggests that the scaled mean of Specialist Mathematics would increase by about three, but there would be no observable changes to other studies.
VTAC will implement these changes in December 2011 for the scaling of VCE studies for the calculation of the 2011 ATAR.
There will be transition arrangements for current Year 12 students who completed studies in Year 11 in 2010 and which were scaled using the 2010 procedures. These students will have their 2010 scores re-scaled using the revised procedure and will receive the higher of the two scaled scores for the calculation of their 2011 ATAR.
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Just to add my 2 cents, I have no idea.
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I think the question is: Is spesh really that hard of a subject to get scaled up 11. I honestly think that the effort you need to put in to get a 30 in spesh is lesser than the effort needed to get a 41 in another subject. But that's just me.
eh im not entirely sure... id say when you put it next to subjects like chemistry and methods 11 might be too high, but id say a 30 in specialist is a lot harder to get than a 43 in further (it goes down 2 most years)
no joke i could have passed a further exam with ease in grade 4...
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Does it mean this yr exam will be more difficult than last yr?
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Does this mean we have to try harder for Spesh or can we work less?
I assume we can work less on Spesh because technically if we get an extra study score in all our other subjects (or just get a higher score for English) then we still get a higher ATAR? :P
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Does it mean this yr exam will be more difficult than last yr?
Not necessarily. Again, scaling is to do with competition rather than the difficulty of the subject. Example - in my opinion biology was a much harder subject than methods (i did both last year) and physics and chem, but bio stays at 30 whereas methods goes to 35, chem 34 and physics 32.
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a couple of my friends are doing bio this year and finished methods last year, they say bio isnt much harder than p.e. and is much easier than methods, so it's just opinion based i guess. it's probably why getting the scaling right is such a hard job
@ acinod please stop working now :)
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Depends on how well they want to do. I don't do bio myself, so take this with a grain of salt. Many people rote learn material for bio and end up with average scores. In order to do really well you need to understand the course very well conceptually, and need to be able to adapt your thinking.
With methods, it's hard to start out, but easy to excel.
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Does it mean this yr exam will be more difficult than last yr?
Not necessarily. Again, scaling is to do with competition rather than the difficulty of the subject. Example - in my opinion biology was a much harder subject than methods (i did both last year) and physics and chem, but bio stays at 30 whereas methods goes to 35, chem 34 and physics 32.
BIO IS FUCKING RIDICULOUS
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While Spec may be conceptually harder than further, the fact is further has more competition, to get 43+ you need to really be up there amongst the TOP further students and getting top scores which aren't always easy, so you'd need to be spamming practice exams to pull that kind of score on the exam and perfecting your techniques throughout the year.
A MUCH greater proportion of spec students on the other hand will get 30+, meaning that you wouldn't have to study as hard to get a RAW 30... sure it's CONCEPTUALLY harder but in terms of scoring if you can understand the concepts of both subjects then it's easier to get the 30 in spec as it requires far less work.
This is why kids who have the capability to do Spec and then make the misguided decision that it's "easier to do better in further" are largely incorrect. If you are able to understand Specialist you should do it because doing Further gives you no advantages, if anything it puts pressure on you to be "perfect" throughout the year doing relatively dull and uninspiring Maths.
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Think of it this way, is has been unfair for those who took spesh in the last couple of years as it didn't scale by as much as it should have been scaling by. They are correcting it to make it fair.
so does this mean there have been several illegitimate 99.95'ers meaning scholarships to medicine, law, etc. were wrongly handed out?
this has terrible consequences for many people who may have been border line. Such a frightfully blatant mistake on their part.
Frightfully?
Do you realise in many countries, there is mass corruption with high school scores and you can literally and easily buy your way into university. By comparison, getting 99.90 when it should have been 99.95, 0.05 difference, doesn't seem all that bad.
Frightfully.
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Think of it this way, is has been unfair for those who took spesh in the last couple of years as it didn't scale by as much as it should have been scaling by. They are correcting it to make it fair.
so does this mean there have been several illegitimate 99.95'ers meaning scholarships to medicine, law, etc. were wrongly handed out?
this has terrible consequences for many people who may have been border line. Such a frightfully blatant mistake on their part.
Frightfully?
Do you realise in many countries, there is mass corruption with high school scores and you can literally and easily buy your way into university. By comparison, getting 99.90 when it should have been 99.95, 0.05 difference, doesn't seem all that bad.
Frightfully.
I think in instances such as these, you have to appreciate the context of the comment.
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Think of it this way, is has been unfair for those who took spesh in the last couple of years as it didn't scale by as much as it should have been scaling by. They are correcting it to make it fair.
so does this mean there have been several illegitimate 99.95'ers meaning scholarships to medicine, law, etc. were wrongly handed out?
this has terrible consequences for many people who may have been border line. Such a frightfully blatant mistake on their part.
Frightfully?
Do you realise in many countries, there is mass corruption with high school scores and you can literally and easily buy your way into university. By comparison, getting 99.90 when it should have been 99.95, 0.05 difference, doesn't seem all that bad.
Frightfully.
I think in instances such as these, you have to appreciate the context of the comment.
I see what you're saying. I just don't think 0.05 difference in someone's ATAR is really THAT big a deal. Maybe for a few days they'll care, but in the long term (steady state lulz) I don't think anybody gives a shit if they got 99.90 or 99.95.
And yes, I think aggregates will go up. Maybe at your private school's, not all of the good students took Specialist. At my western suburbs school, EVERY student who breaks 90 in their ATAR did spesh. So yes, it will go up.
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Think of it this way, is has been unfair for those who took spesh in the last couple of years as it didn't scale by as much as it should have been scaling by. They are correcting it to make it fair.
so does this mean there have been several illegitimate 99.95'ers meaning scholarships to medicine, law, etc. were wrongly handed out?
this has terrible consequences for many people who may have been border line. Such a frightfully blatant mistake on their part.
Frightfully?
Do you realise in many countries, there is mass corruption with high school scores and you can literally and easily buy your way into university. By comparison, getting 99.90 when it should have been 99.95, 0.05 difference, doesn't seem all that bad.
Frightfully.
I think in instances such as these, you have to appreciate the context of the comment.
I see what you're saying. I just don't think 0.05 difference in someone's ATAR is really THAT big a deal. Maybe for a few days they'll care, but in the long term (steady state lulz) I don't think anybody gives a shit if they got 99.90 or 99.95.
And yes, I think aggregates will go up. Maybe at your private school's, not all of the good students took Specialist. At my western suburbs school, EVERY student who breaks 90 in their ATAR did spesh. So yes, it will go up.
i would care, getting a 99.95 means scholarship to medicine 99.90 doesn't.
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I take your point, but I don't think there is an error in the way they have been calculating it anyway. They've just changed the system to make it more fair. The system is never COMPLETELY fair as is nothing in life. So, I guess there have been many illegitimate 99.95ers in that regard, but that's what it is to be human. Just to put some perspective into this, I still think there is a larger discrepancy in English marking than any scaling. EZ getting 45 in English is proof enough. I know at my school the highest SS for lit was 43 last year and the kid who got it was umm, not the most deserving, the teachers had a massive WTFFF!!! moment.
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I take your point, but I don't think there is an error in the way they have been calculating it anyway. They've just changed the system to make it more fair. The system is never COMPLETELY fair as is nothing in life. So, I guess there have been many illegitimate 99.95ers in that regard, but that's what it is to be human. Just to put some perspective into this, I still think there is a larger discrepancy in English marking than any scaling. EZ getting 45 in English is proof enough. I know at my school the highest SS for lit was 43 last year and the kid who got it was umm, not the most deserving, the teachers had a massive WTFFF!!! moment.
I could've easily acheived 99.95 but cuz I wasn't motivated I didn't. I think the system is very unfair and flawed because it doesn't put everyone on the same motivated level.
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But they didnt have the stats etc to revise their scaling process, it would have only affected a minority anyway. Not like it would adversly affect them, they'll still get scholarships depending on the degrees they do and they'll probably do big things in the future.
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guys can i get a TLDR please haha
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guys can i get a TLDR please haha
TL;DR, the method for scaling changes. Specialist students benefits. Past students may be at a slight disadvantage. People may have missed out on scholarships. VTAC is corrupt, trololol.
Look at the bigger picture, scholarship or not, people who are talented will end up in a good position/job/whatever. If you ask any .90ers whether they feel ripped off, I bet every one of them will tell you how content and satisfied they are with their achievements.
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SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET
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does this mean that if spesh scales more, so to will methods?
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I take your point, but I don't think there is an error in the way they have been calculating it anyway. They've just changed the system to make it more fair. The system is never COMPLETELY fair as is nothing in life. So, I guess there have been many illegitimate 99.95ers in that regard, but that's what it is to be human. Just to put some perspective into this, I still think there is a larger discrepancy in English marking than any scaling. EZ getting 45 in English is proof enough. I know at my school the highest SS for lit was 43 last year and the kid who got it was umm, not the most deserving, the teachers had a massive WTFFF!!! moment.
I could've easily acheived 99.95 but cuz I wasn't motivated I didn't. I think the system is very unfair and flawed because it doesn't put everyone on the same motivated level.
It's up to the individual to motivate themselves
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I take your point, but I don't think there is an error in the way they have been calculating it anyway. They've just changed the system to make it more fair. The system is never COMPLETELY fair as is nothing in life. So, I guess there have been many illegitimate 99.95ers in that regard, but that's what it is to be human. Just to put some perspective into this, I still think there is a larger discrepancy in English marking than any scaling. EZ getting 45 in English is proof enough. I know at my school the highest SS for lit was 43 last year and the kid who got it was umm, not the most deserving, the teachers had a massive WTFFF!!! moment.
I could've easily acheived 99.95 but cuz I wasn't motivated I didn't. I think the system is very unfair and flawed because it doesn't put everyone on the same motivated level.
It's up to the individual to motivate themselves
VCE is not how "smart" are, it's how hard you work. (given that intelligence and motivation does play a role in what you could achieve)
In the end working hard at the hard subjects will reward you.
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does this mean that if spesh scales more, so to will methods?
From that VCAA document, it says that only spesh will change and the other maths will be relatively the same. Spesh scaling changes because they now take into account the scores that the kids got in Year 11. As a result, the cohort of Spesh is determined to be higher and so scaling goes up.
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VCE is not how "smart" are, it's how hard you work. (given that intelligence and motivation does play a role in what you could achieve)
It's about how hard you can work whilst playing the system ;)
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Do Latin.
Walk in to the Exam. Sit Down. Have a nice nap. Leave Exam.
And you get scaled score of 35....
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if it goes up 11 then i will get 85 from nothing but 30's :D
abusing the scaling win!
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my hopes of a 99.95 have been revived, man a 55 in speshh! *droooool*
this is revenge on all the people doing a language! :D
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my hopes of a 99.95 have been revived, man a 55 in speshh! *droooool*
this is revenge on all the people doing a language! :D
lol your kidding yourself if you think it will go to 55,
maybe 53
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lol your kidding yourself if you think it will go to 55,
maybe 53
yeahh, i know i'm being too optimistic
but i still don't understand why some languages scale up so highly compared to other subjects, like i'm ok with scaling, i think it's fair, but when scaling goes beyond 50, there's an issue, because the MAXIMUM i can get in say methods is 50, no matter how good i am, whilst someone doing Latin can get 55
even though the spesh scaling benefits me, i think ALL subjects should have a maximum of 50!
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There's two sides to the argument, if a person who gets 50 in food tech or some easy shit like that, are they as deserving as a 50 in specialist maths? But then if the Einstein of food tech takes it, should he be scaled down?
Personally, I think the current system is pretty fair, it's hard to gauge just how good the best person in the state really is. So just leave it the way it is.
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Mods.
Close thread and ban/
You guys realise this was a joke yeh?
It was just sarcasm at how good this situation is.
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my hopes of a 99.95 have been revived, man a 55 in speshh! *droooool*
this is revenge on all the people doing a language! :D
lol your kidding yourself if you think it will go to 55,
maybe 53
Don't think so. Up until 2006 Spesh went up to 55, then from 2007 onwards it went 54, 53, 52, 52 or something. Given this, and given that the system has been revived, I reckon Spesh would go back up to 54 at least, if not 55.
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i overheard pacitti saying it wouldn't go that far up,
ask him when you get to school, he would be able to give the best approximation.
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Done deal. If Thushan says it will go to 54 at least, then it will!! :D
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a 50 in spesh, i would imagine would be easier than a 50 in languages,
i agree with paul when he says no subjects should go above 50, but i really think that lang. should still be higher than spesh
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a 50 in spesh, i would imagine would be easier than a 50 in languages,
i agree with paul when he says no subjects should go above 50, but i really think that lang. should still be higher than spesh
Definitely, languages are so much harder to learn. I mean at least with maths youre using a numbers - something youve been dealing with since you were a kid. A language is completely different, new alphabet, new vocab, you have intonation etc etc
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a 50 in spesh, i would imagine would be easier than a 50 in languages,
i agree with paul when he says no subjects should go above 50, but i really think that lang. should still be higher than spesh
+1. A 50 in spesh is doable I think - like it's possible...but a 50 in a language? WTF! Unless you're a perfect specimen like scocliffe09 or fuzzylogic...
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a 50 in spesh, i would imagine would be easier than a 50 in languages,
i agree with paul when he says no subjects should go above 50, but i really think that lang. should still be higher than spesh
+1. A 50 in spesh is doable I think - like it's possible...but a 50 in a language? WTF! Unless you're a perfect specimen like scocliffe09 or fuzzylogic...
True language is retarded since the cohort you get is so random and I heard that VCE is really dodgy when it comes to languages.
If Spesh really goes up by 11 from 30 then technically it means you can get 50 if you get 41 raw :O (I THINK since 2007 a 30 in Spesh went up to 40 and a 41 went up to 49.6)
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+1. A 50 in spesh is doable I think - like it's possible...but a 50 in a language? WTF! Unless you're a perfect specimen like scocliffe09 or fuzzylogic...
Well...someone's gotta get that 50 :P
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True. But for languages you need to be 1st or 2nd in state...
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True. But for languages you need to be 1st or 2nd in state...
So, having a bad sac mark (maybe ranked in the middle of a small as cohort, when I say small its <70) means you can't do well T.T?
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For languages? 70 is a massive cohort for a language - there's about 18 ppl doing german at my school
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Schools should make their students do a language, that will 100% guarantee to boost up their ATAR Median....LOL!
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+1. Foreign languages should be compulsory, at least up until year 10. It is vitally important to learn foreign languages, as understanding of different cultures comes in the learning, leading to tolerance and acceptance - and understanding of different thought processes.
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a 50 in spesh, i would imagine would be easier than a 50 in languages,
i agree with paul when he says no subjects should go above 50, but i really think that lang. should still be higher than spesh
+1. A 50 in spesh is doable I think - like it's possible...but a 50 in a language? WTF! Unless you're a perfect specimen like scocliffe09 or fuzzylogic...
???
Rumor has it that you've never lost a mark in anything in your life
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a 50 in spesh, i would imagine would be easier than a 50 in languages,
i agree with paul when he says no subjects should go above 50, but i really think that lang. should still be higher than spesh
+1. A 50 in spesh is doable I think - like it's possible...but a 50 in a language? WTF! Unless you're a perfect specimen like scocliffe09 or fuzzylogic...
???
Rumor has it that you've never lost a mark in anything in your life
Confirming this as true.
Also, Thushan, what you said makes a lot of sense, but you think far too much of some people. Most people don't have the insight to realise this and see it as 'It's a fuking English country, they should learn our language.'
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For languages? 70 is a massive cohort for a language - there's about 18 ppl doing german at my school
59 in the state
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@ Nokia: I know I'm going off topic - but attitudes like that are quite shallow, and education and knowledge about other cultures is the key, I reckon :D
@Others: Truth has it that I've lost heaps of marks throughout this year...I think I count about 22 SAC marks this year? Plus 4 from physics midyear and 2 from chem midyear.
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@ Nokia: I know I'm going off topic - but attitudes like that are quite shallow, and education and knowledge about other cultures is the key, I reckon :D
@Others: Truth has it that I've lost heaps of marks throughout this year...I think I count about 22 SAC marks this year? Plus 4 from physics midyear and 2 from chem midyear.
bro i lost 32 marks in chem today
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@ Nokia: I know I'm going off topic - but attitudes like that are quite shallow, and education and knowledge about other cultures is the key, I reckon :D
@Others: Truth has it that I've lost heaps of marks throughout this year...I think I count about 22 SAC marks this year? Plus 4 from physics midyear and 2 from chem midyear.
It's shallow. But not everybody has had the chances you have had. You go to one of the finest high schools in the world. Try explaining to a white guy who gets jumped after school by a bunch of black guys ( or Asian or European) so they can still his Ipod that he should learn their language to gain insight into their culture. It becomes a bit hard to think logically at some times.
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I doubt 50 will go to 55...the only subjects that do (classic/dead languages) are impossible to score above 47-48 in, ie. no-one actually gets a scaled 55. Seeing as a fair few people will get 50 in Spesh, and it's IMO way easier than Latin/Ancient Greek, it just plain shouldn't scale past 53, maybe 54 tops. It's unfair.
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Mods.
Close thread and ban/
You guys realise this was a joke yeh?
It was just sarcasm at how good this situation is.
<< see how many posts i have
that means i dont get forum sarcasm quite yet :D
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I doubt 50 will go to 55...the only subjects that do (classic/dead languages) are impossible to score above 47-48 in, ie. no-one actually gets a scaled 55. Seeing as a fair few people will get 50 in Spesh, and it's IMO way easier than Latin/Ancient Greek, it just plain shouldn't scale past 53, maybe 54 tops. It's unfair.
any system that allows spesh to go to 54-55 is questionable.
i think spesh should stay at the scaling it was before these changes. 52 is already a distinct advantage.
it is ridiculous that a 41 should go to 50,
id say getting a 50 in further is harder than getting a 41 in specialst.
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Why you guys hatin on NokiaCharger?? with negative rep?!?!
He gives all his money to charity... be nice
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i like him :D or her :D or it...
btw people wtf is a cohort?
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changed the first post, can talk about everything now!
lets go back to the sociology stuff :)
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changed the first post, can talk about everything now!
lets go back to the sociology stuff :)
No.
Off-topic posts have been split and moved to Ethics and such.
If you want to discuss sociology and such, please take it to Other General Discussion
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awww checkmate =\
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Bringing it back to the topic, I think I agree with JDog, although I have to disagree when you say that 41 in spesh is easier than 50 in further, it depends on the type of person, some people have working styles that are more suited to spesh (usually the good mathematical thinkers) others are more inclined to further (the careful and meticulous ones)
But I still think no subject should go above 50 because it means that people who don't do any subjects which scale above 50 have a very difficult path to a 99.95. Essentially they're looking at a minimum of three 50's and a 48 or there abouts and no doubt languages and spesh push up the aggregates
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Bringing it back to the topic, I think I agree with JDog, although I have to disagree when you say that 41 in spesh is easier than 50 in further, it depends on the type of person, some people have working styles that are more suited to spesh (usually the good mathematical thinkers) others are more inclined to further (the careful and meticulous ones)
But I still think no subject should go above 50 because it means that people who don't do any subjects which scale above 50 have a very difficult path to a 99.95. Essentially they're looking at a minimum of three 50's and a 48 or there abouts and no doubt languages and spesh push up the aggregates
It's more so to do with the percentage of people who get each score. There is a MUCH MUCH greater %'age of students who will get at least a 41 in spec than those who get a 50 raw in further, it's not necessarily about which subject is easier, it's about how well comparatively you need to do.
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On the other hand, it is a good incentive to get students to do specialist maths. It is quite important for science and engineering degrees.
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i don't want other people to be doing specialist math :(
supply and demand people
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see y guys have been discussing z lot about this, but has anyone thought about the fifth subject? Anyone know if they will scale up the raw score first then choose the fifth subject or will they choose the fifth one first? I did ask my teacher but he said the VCAA just keeps it as a secret. If they scale first then choose the fifth last, its goin to be awesome, isnt it?! Hopefullyyyyy!!!!!
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I just realised that back in the days where Spesh used to scale up to 55, the aggregate required for a 99.95 was comparatively higher than last year, showing there is strong correlation between the aggregate and Spesh scaling, hmm, i'm skeptical now :(
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I just realised that back in the days where Spesh used to scale up to 55, the aggregate required for a 99.95 was comparatively higher than last year, showing there is strong correlation between the aggregate and Spesh scaling, hmm, i'm skeptical now :(
It shouldnt affect the aggregates cos it said that they compare the scaling of spesh with the other maths. Which is why the thread kinda derailed cos ppl were bitching about it lol
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It does. Generally those in the top end of ATAR do spesh and score well. A raising of spesh score raises aggregates.
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It does. Generally those in the top end of ATAR do spesh and score well. A raising of spesh score raises aggregates.
But it would have more of an affect on the top range like 99.5+? How do you reckon it will affect the 95-97 range?
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It does. Generally those in the top end of ATAR do spesh and score well. A raising of spesh score raises aggregates.
But it would have more of an affect on the top range like 99.5+? How do you reckon it will affect the 95-97 range?
Pretty minimal effect compared to the potential change to the 99.95 cutoff.
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But it would have more of an affect on the top range like 99.5+? How do you reckon it will affect the 95-97 range?
It would have an effect, but whether it is a large effect or not, I wouldn't know, it depends on a lot of other factors apart from Spesh scaling, although Spesh has a large part to play because of the relatively large cohort of Spesh do-ers as compared to say a language
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my god.. i made this as a "woot woot it goes up 11 everyone party" thread and you guys have made it "omfg aggregate is fucked"
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my god.. i made this as a "woot woot it goes up 11 everyone party" thread and you guys have made it "omfg aggregate is fucked"
Hey, I'm still in party mode :D
(metaphorically)
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Natters, i'm not saying aggregate is fucked, I'm saying, it won't make any difference to the ATAR or very little difference, so just don't worry about it :)
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im not :D
i lol'd at the metaphorically