ATAR Notes: Forum

VCE Stuff => Victorian Technical Score Discussion => Topic started by: Greatness on February 27, 2011, 03:06:08 pm

Title: Ranks....
Post by: Greatness on February 27, 2011, 03:06:08 pm
According to my jap teacher, after all the sacs are ordered from highest to lowest; they teacher can change the order if they think that someone else should be higher than where they are currently ranked. :s Is this true?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: iNerd on February 27, 2011, 03:25:37 pm
Considering it is the teachers who send off the ranks it could be quite possible...

...such as shit system :-\
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on February 27, 2011, 03:25:58 pm
According to my jap teacher, after all the sacs are ordered from highest to lowest; they teacher can change the order if they think that someone else should be higher than where they are currently ranked. :s Is this true?
In theory, I doubt it. In reality, of course it would be happening. Albeit unfair and/or illegal, I think that there definitely could be some cases where this should be applied (cough m@tty), but I don't really know how a teacher can prove it
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: m@tty on February 27, 2011, 03:43:09 pm
The teacher can do whatever they want with ranks. It's just entering numbers into the system But if they get audited they'll be in trouble.

EDIT: lol luken
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: iamtom on February 27, 2011, 04:15:50 pm
My Software Development teacher just 'fixed' the ranks; he didn't change the ranks, but he changed the SAC marks so it was more organised, instead of no.1 having 99/100, 2 having 98/100 and 3 having 95/100; he fixed it so that 3 had 97/100...
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: iamtom on February 27, 2011, 04:43:29 pm
I DO know that teachers can't change your letter grade.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Menang on February 27, 2011, 04:44:26 pm
Whoa... this all sounds very dodgy. 0_0
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: pi on February 27, 2011, 04:55:40 pm
Whoa... this all sounds very dodgy. 0_0

+1, but I'm sure it happens all the time
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Ghost! on February 27, 2011, 05:16:23 pm
Woaaahhh, I'm suddenly really concerned!

What if you mess around in class all year, but still consistently score better than anyone else, at the end of the year the teacher could hypothetical strip you of number one rank just because he/she doesn't think you will do will in the exam D:
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Liuy on February 27, 2011, 05:28:05 pm
We as students can't do anything about the actions of our teachers.

just study hard, thats all you can do.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: m@tty on February 27, 2011, 05:29:10 pm
Woaaahhh, I'm suddenly really concerned!

What if you mess around in class all year, but still consistently score better than anyone else, at the end of the year the teacher could hypothetical strip you of number one rank just because he/she doesn't think you will do will in the exam D:

Most teachers do not tamper with this. I know none of mine would.

But if your teacher is of this mentality, then if you have projected a bad image of yourself you could be punished (albeit unjustly)..
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: /0 on February 27, 2011, 07:29:12 pm
Rounding matters a lot in SAC marks :p
Over all the SACs you can lose more marks than someone else but get ranked higher than them
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: werdna on February 27, 2011, 07:38:43 pm
I definitely knew of some teachers 'cranking up' English SAC scores for people who they think 'deserved' it, or to even out scores. I think teachers/VCE coordinators also send off predictive study scores or something to VCAA.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: pi on February 27, 2011, 07:43:11 pm
I definitely knew of some teachers 'cranking up' English SAC scores for people who they think 'deserved' it, or to even out scores. I think teachers/VCE coordinators also send off predictive study scores or something to VCAA.

I think they do that in my school too. I know a guy who got 100/100 for his SACs (from his school) and definitely believes his mark was bumped up.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: horizon on February 27, 2011, 10:49:53 pm
When the marks are sent off, is it ranked in your class or in the whole school?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on February 27, 2011, 11:00:20 pm
When the marks are sent off, is it ranked in your class or in the whole school?
whole school, hence why they are "meant to" cross mark everything
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Hodgeyhodgey on February 28, 2011, 06:50:08 am
Is it normal for schools to base rankings on scores other than sacs? Because in further this year we just completed a sac on networks then straight afterwards we did another test to, as the teacher said "help with determining our rankings".
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on February 28, 2011, 07:33:28 am
Is it normal for schools to base rankings on scores other than sacs? Because in further this year we just completed a sac on networks then straight afterwards we did another test to, as the teacher said "help with determining our rankings".
Theoretically, they have to tell you know what will be counted and what won't be, hence why they call them SACs. But I suppose if there is a discrepancy between a few close marks, they could do it to differentiate?

As with this thread, everything and anything is possible...
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: nacho on February 28, 2011, 03:43:04 pm
I definitely knew of some teachers 'cranking up' English SAC scores for people who they think 'deserved' it, or to even out scores. I think teachers/VCE coordinators also send off predictive study scores or something to VCAA.

I think they do that in my school too. I know a guy who got 100/100 for his SACs (from his school) and definitely believes his mark was bumped up.
You're talking about K.L yea? I remember him saying that.
I'm pretty sure this isn't a common case, like generally it's irrelevant in an awesome cohort between first 10 ranks anyway..
 and it's really easy to distinguish between good and bad students in a crap cohort.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: pi on February 28, 2011, 07:46:42 pm
I definitely knew of some teachers 'cranking up' English SAC scores for people who they think 'deserved' it, or to even out scores. I think teachers/VCE coordinators also send off predictive study scores or something to VCAA.

I think they do that in my school too. I know a guy who got 100/100 for his SACs (from his school) and definitely believes his mark was bumped up.
You're talking about K.L yea? I remember him saying that.
I'm pretty sure this isn't a common case, like generally it's irrelevant in an awesome cohort between first 10 ranks anyway..
 and it's really easy to distinguish between good and bad students in a crap cohort.

He was one of the guys, (who would have got 100/100 scaled anyway), but I've heard  of another one from the same year. So shifty.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: flash36 on March 01, 2011, 02:01:24 pm
My PE teacher never used to give us a percentage mark for our SACs, just a letter grade, which I thought was dodgy because the marks relative to grades could be varied so easily when sent away to VCAA.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Ghost! on March 01, 2011, 04:31:47 pm
My PE teacher never used to give us a percentage mark for our SACs, just a letter grade, which I thought was dodgy because the marks relatie to grades could be varied so easily when sent away to VCAA.

Yeah, I found out today that our English department is refusing to hand out actually marks on orals, just rough letter grades. Pretty frustrating.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: lexitu on March 01, 2011, 04:55:08 pm
URGE TO KILL RISING!

- (Pretty sure) predictive scores are only used for error checking in the case that a student scores significantly higher or lower than predicted.
- Students should have the right to know their exact scores and where they could improve.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: m@tty on March 01, 2011, 06:03:50 pm
AFAIK, all that teachers provide as far as predictions are "indicative grades" for exams.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: ReganM on March 01, 2011, 09:55:00 pm
AFAIK, all that teachers provide as far as predictions are "indicative grades" for exams.

Yup, I heard that those are used if the student say, is hospitalised on the way to the exam, you won't totally fail but they'll take into account what your teacher(s) thought you would get in the exam.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: golden on March 21, 2011, 05:05:43 pm
Lets say if:
Rank 1 person (SACS) got 99% on their exam.
Rank 8 person (SACS) got 100% on their exam.

Who would get a higher study score?

What about:
Rank 1 person gets 0% (exam).
Rank 8 person gets 100% (exam).
Would that mean that the rank 8 person wouldn't be able to get a 50?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Dr.Lecter on March 21, 2011, 05:11:50 pm
rank 1 would get higher, since we don't know what the 8th best exam score was
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Greatness on March 21, 2011, 05:14:07 pm
For the first situation id say the person ranked 1 would get the highest SS. And Rank 8s SS will depend on how well people ranked frmo 2-7 went.
The 2nd one is retarded lol not sure on what would happen. Id say that how the people ranked 2-7 went in the exams would have an influence on Rank 8s SS
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: werdna on March 21, 2011, 05:25:13 pm
When people say that the performance of others in the top ranks affects your study score, by how many points are you suggesting?

For example, I'm around rank 8/9 at the moment for BM in a really weak cohort. If I do really well on the exam, and the people higher than me in SACs get a lower exam score, what will my score look like? :S How will it have been affected by the others?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: golden on March 22, 2011, 05:15:38 pm
When people say that the performance of others in the top ranks affects your study score, by how many points are you suggesting?

For example, I'm around rank 8/9 at the moment for BM in a really weak cohort. If I do really well on the exam, and the people higher than me in SACs get a lower exam score, what will my score look like? :S How will it have been affected by the others?

I also want to know this.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: werdna on March 22, 2011, 05:25:42 pm
Hmm.. yeah I think, end of the day, your exam score is your exam score. Your SACs will affect your overall score too. Whilst there's all this complex stuff about rankings and moderating, bottom line is: SACs do matter. :P
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: horizon on March 24, 2011, 01:28:30 pm
Is it still possible to get a 50, but rank 2nd, assuming that you do really well on the exam?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: /0 on March 24, 2011, 07:11:12 pm
Assuming your cohort is fairly strong, then yes
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: golden on March 25, 2011, 11:06:10 am
If the SAC rankings cause the person to get the exam mark rankings, couldn't someone who knew that they were ranked 1 in the SACs  get 50% in the exam and that the first person's exam mark? If this was the case the system is not right.

Someone clarify this.

Or is it rank 1 exams = rank 1 SACs rather?

Or...?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Dr.Lecter on March 25, 2011, 02:08:21 pm
yes, cohort rank is proportional to exam score ranks
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Jdog on March 25, 2011, 05:34:39 pm
just putting out there, in a good cohort there's no neccesisty to be rank 1, id say be in the top 15 and your in the mix.
but it all depends on how strong the cohort is.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: pi on March 26, 2011, 10:38:51 am
just putting out there, in a good cohort there's no neccesisty to be rank 1, id say be in the top 15 and your in the mix.
but it all depends on how strong the cohort is.

In MHS methods, being in the top 25-30 is pretty good. I would imagine that the same is for MacRob
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: pi on March 26, 2011, 01:18:13 pm
does being rank 1 over say rank 20 give a huge advantage at MHS or Macrob in getting a 50?, or do they both get moderated to mid to high A+ therefore not really affecting chance?

It doesn't really make a difference. In recent years, the rank 1 in bio and accounting hasn't got 50 (usually 45-48)
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: taiga on March 26, 2011, 01:25:47 pm
For geography pretty much the top ranks ended up getting  low scores (compared to what should be expected), and they ended up with high 30s, and as a result, everyone else got pushed down a fair bit.

It's a bit more reliable with methods/chem/bio/accounting though at MHS as people generally spam trial exams and do well, so the people below you and the people above you often hit up those good A-A+ marks consistently
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: wildareal on March 26, 2011, 01:31:49 pm
I don't truly believe that it is purely based on rank for certain subjects. I did Latin last year and got a 42/50 for Unit 3 and that only yielded a B+-this scaled to a 44/50. This is because to get an A+ you need 48+/50 per unit. So theoretically the number one rank may not get an A+ if his/her SACs are not high enough.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: taiga on March 26, 2011, 01:43:09 pm
I don't truly believe that it is purely based on rank for certain subjects. I did Latin last year and got a 42/50 for Unit 3 and that only yielded a B+-this scaled to a 44/50. This is because to get an A+ you need 48+/50 per unit. So theoretically the number one rank may not get an A+ if his/her SACs are not high enough.

If he gets an A+ on his exam, but and is ranked one, it shouldn't matter how well he did on his sacs. Just gotta keep that rank.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: wildareal on March 26, 2011, 05:21:58 pm
I swear there is a VCAA pdf which shows the scaled marks out of 100 for SACs needed to yield a certain grade. Anyone got the link? Cheers
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: werdna on March 26, 2011, 05:40:18 pm
I swear there is a VCAA pdf which shows the scaled marks out of 100 for SACs needed to yield a certain grade. Anyone got the link? Cheers

Sounds interesting!
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: m@tty on March 26, 2011, 09:54:10 pm
I swear there is a VCAA pdf which shows the scaled marks out of 100 for SACs needed to yield a certain grade. Anyone got the link? Cheers

http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/statistics/subjectstats.html -> choose year -> section 3, graded distributions -> choose subject
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: werdna on March 26, 2011, 10:17:32 pm
Wow, the SAC requirement for an A+ in BM is really high!
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: iNerd on March 27, 2011, 09:00:13 am
Hmm so is the SAC range after moderation or raw?

For Psych its 185-200.

If a student from MHS gets 170/200 and then gets mid-high A+ on both exams what does the SAC mark become?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Hutchoo on March 27, 2011, 09:19:17 am
Wow, the SAC requirement for an A+ in BM is really high!
BM and Economics are very similar, BM is a bit higher though..
Anyway; I'm kind of confused...
I just had my economics SAC which was out of 95 and I lost 6 marks.. Does that mean that if I drop another mark in unit 3 ....I won't be able to get a low A+?

Haha, kinda noob at this stuff >.>.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: flash36 on March 27, 2011, 10:10:24 am
Those figures are after moderation I think.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: iNerd on March 27, 2011, 10:37:04 am
I still don't get it...

If a MHS student gets 170/200 RAW SAC score but blitz's the exam what happens?

Clearly the Psych cut-off for A+ was 185 and this student (hypothetical) got 170...
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on March 27, 2011, 10:44:35 am
I still don't get it...

If a MHS student gets 170/200 RAW SAC score but blitz's the exam what happens?

Clearly the Psych cut-off for A+ was 185 and this student (hypothetical) got 170...
Well for me, my BM SACs before/after moderation were:
99.0 -> 100.0
96.0 -> 100.0

Exam: 59/65

Despite both my SAC marks being in the A+ range before moderation, they were raised the the highest possible mark because my exam score was probably fairly decent in terms of the cohort that sat the exam (only 3-4 marks of a 50).

AFAIK, SACs are merely put in place to determine rankings, so that when you MHS'ers get into the exam and blitz it, your ranks can then be assigned a SAC marking...
This is where the importance of cohort strength comes in, of course MHS will have kids worthy of a 50 in basically every subject, and so those underneath will be assigned scores from 50 down, whereas weaker cohorts may start their filling from 40 down.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: werdna on March 27, 2011, 11:14:00 am
Hmm.. what are the chances of my SAC scores moderating up if I'm in a weak cohort, ranked in the top 10 or so? With a really good exam score that is!
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on March 27, 2011, 11:41:11 am
Hmm.. what are the chances of my SAC scores moderating up if I'm in a weak cohort, ranked in the top 10 or so? With a really good exam score that is!
I'll post up my perception of the way moderation works, feel free to question it...
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: werdna on March 27, 2011, 11:44:22 am
Yeppp sure, argh I'm beginning to really hate this system, but I guess it does have its reasons.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: taiga on March 27, 2011, 11:46:41 am
I still don't get it...

If a MHS student gets 170/200 RAW SAC score but blitz's the exam what happens?

Clearly the Psych cut-off for A+ was 185 and this student (hypothetical) got 170...

170 is too low for a 50, he will probably get a 48ish. I havent heard of sac marks being bumped up much higher than 25 from mhs
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on March 27, 2011, 11:49:12 am
Every person in your cohort is assigned a rank according to the SAC marks you receive throughout the year. When you get to the exam, the person with rank 1 will receive the highest exam score from their respective cohort as their SAC score, rank 2 will receive the 2nd highest exam score as their SAC score etc etc

So for MHS/MacRob etc, you are bound to have a few people in the top 10 to 20 rankings that will probably receive very very high marks on the exam, which will then be adopted by the top few ranks. So if you can compound both a decent rank in one of these schools, as well as a mid to high exam score - we then see the strength of the cohort emerging by the number of 40+ scores at the end of the year


Therefore, for me, I had the top ranking for BM in my cohort. But to further build on that and get the highest possible SS, if I could get the highest exam score, then I'd adopt this exam score as my SAC score as well as my exam score.
#1 Exam Score + #1 SAC Score = #1 SS for my Cohort

Now think about a weaker cohort, they will also have rankings, yet their exam marks will be no where near as high as other schools, so their benchmark will be set at say 40, and people will be assigned from there down. This way, the people that complain that they received full SAC marks from a weak cohort and don't manage 40 - this is where I base my opinion on how the moderation process works.

As for others, who shine from weaker cohorts, getting rank 1 + a very high exam score WILL yield them a very high SS, as they will adopt this very good exam score as both their exam and SAC score...

As I said before, hopefully this makes sense. This is probably wrong, but I think it covers any questions that people may have - from both strong and weak cohorts...
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Greatness on March 27, 2011, 12:04:21 pm
Good post Luke nice and clear :)
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: werdna on March 27, 2011, 12:08:14 pm
Thanks luken93! Darren seems to be on a roll neg voting every post here.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Water on March 27, 2011, 12:10:00 pm
Thanks luken93! Darren seems to be on a roll neg voting every post here.


Maybe you two are in the same school. Your a victim, werdna


Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: werdna on March 27, 2011, 12:13:52 pm
Haha he definitely doesn't go to my school.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: burbs on March 27, 2011, 12:14:41 pm
that can't be right. That would just be a ridiculous system, that would mean your exam score is completely dependent on your SAC score and you don't actually get any credit for your work. That means if you have rank 1 at MHS for e.g. , in sacs, you can just not rock up to the exam and get like 145/150
faiiiir point

edit: nvm i didnt read it either
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Russ on March 27, 2011, 12:16:02 pm
that can't be right. That would just be a ridiculous system, that would mean your exam score is completely dependent on your SAC score and you don't actually get any credit for your work. That means if you have rank 1 at MHS for e.g. , in sacs, you can just not rock up to the exam and get like 145/150

Read what he said properly, he never said your exam score is affected by your SAC score, he said it was the other way around
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: werdna on March 27, 2011, 12:18:52 pm
Okay a hypothetical situation, if I get rank 10 or so in a weak cohort for BM, but blitz the exam with the highest exam score in the cohort, how will my scores be moderated?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Greatness on March 27, 2011, 12:19:42 pm
For all we know this theory of how vcaa calculate study scores could be wrong. Therefore in my opinion, stop confusing yourself with all this garbage if you dont understand it and make sure that you do well in your sacs as they do count; but most importantly get the best mark possible for the exams.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Water on March 27, 2011, 12:21:17 pm
If you have failed all your sacs, given 0%, but hypothetically, your a genius, and get the top mark in both exams or one exam if theres only one for that subject. Would that automatically put you in 40+ SS?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: burbs on March 27, 2011, 12:24:13 pm
Tip: Forget about the technical side, just endeavour to lose as few marks as possible for both SACs and the exam.

I may occasionally wonder how it works, but truthfully that mindset seems to be a lot less stressful too.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on March 27, 2011, 12:33:38 pm
that can't be right. That would just be a ridiculous system, that would mean your exam score is completely dependent on your SAC score and you don't actually get any credit for your work. That means if you have rank 1 at MHS for e.g. , in sacs, you can just not rock up to the exam and get like 145/150
Reread what I said. A SS is a combination of both your SAC scores and your exam scores. In the situation you have put up, you will most likely get perfect SAC marks if you are rank 1, but that only makes up 50% of your mark. The other 50% would then be made up by 0% if you didn't turn up - which would give you an overall mark/percentage of 50/100, which would only yield about a 30. As I said before, my theory is only a guide, don't blame me if you don't get the score you think you should deserve
Thanks luken93! Darren seems to be on a roll neg voting every post here.

Maybe you two are in the same school. Your a victim, werdna
Nope, we definitely aren't...

If you have failed all your sacs, given 0%, but hypothetically, your a genius, and get the top mark in both exams or one exam if theres only one for that subject. Would that automatically put you in 40+ SS?
As I said, it isn't full proof. I hate using it because I feel bad, but go back to the example of some people on here and their SS that they received last year. My theory only accounts for things that go to plan, not the outliers

Tip: Forget about the technical side, just endeavour to lose as few marks as possible for both SACs and the exam.

I may occasionally wonder how it works, but truthfully that mindset seems to be a lot less stressful too.
Exactly, consistency throughout the year WILL pay off, VCAA aren't that cruel (I think?)
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: _avO on March 27, 2011, 12:38:38 pm
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/exams/statisticalmoderation/statmod.html

Everything you need to know
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: pi on March 27, 2011, 12:44:28 pm
I think we should should stop worrying about cohorts and rankings, but just try our best in all tests, SACs and exams instead.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Bonifacio on March 27, 2011, 12:59:39 pm
I think we should should stop worrying about cohorts and rankings, but just try our best in all tests, SACs and exams instead.

I also took this approach a while ago, no matter how much you look into it, the evidence will prove that the person with the higher score gets the better mark. So just focus on getting 100% on all your sacs/exams, the equation doesn't change no matter what other people are doing.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Hutchoo on March 27, 2011, 11:17:31 pm
wow, you had a 95 mark eco sac???


most likely,
it was a test out 95 which accounts for a certain percentage of your schools SAC,
if it is

say, 10% (10 sacs for year)
that's means you've lost .1 x 6/95 marks

Yeah, the SAC was out of 95 marks; it was pretty hardcore... Anyway, I know that the Eco SAC I recently completed (the one out of 95) was worth 40% of my AOS 1.

We do ~8 SACs throughout the year.
How would you work that out?

P.S What do you mean by "most likely"?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on March 28, 2011, 04:31:42 pm
ah i get it now... i think...

so exam scores will change SAC scores!

not SAC scores change exam scores

:)
correct... In terms of importance:

1) Exam Score
2) Rank amongst cohort
3) Score on SACs
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: HERculina on March 28, 2011, 08:06:51 pm
is there any way to find out wat rank you are?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: m@tty on March 28, 2011, 08:10:32 pm
is there any way to find out wat rank you are?

Ask.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Greatness on March 28, 2011, 08:18:06 pm
If your teacher doesnt tell you, then you would have to ask other students and then try and figure out the rankings.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: golden on April 06, 2011, 01:44:28 pm
Like already mentioned, the exam score is used to moderate the SAC scores. I'm pretty sure you keep your SAC and exam score though, it's just if you are ranked 1 your SAC is moderated based on the best exam score. So there's no 'stealing' scores I think.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: humanimal on April 30, 2011, 10:12:16 pm
The person who got the prize at MHS last year for Health got a SS in the low 30s.
Now I don't know if they had the top rank (I'll ask), but since they got the prize you can assume they were definitely top 3 in the cohort, if not #1.
Two students from MHS got 50s in Health that year.

Go figure.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: HERculina on May 02, 2011, 01:53:11 pm
The person who got the prize at MHS last year for Health got a SS in the low 30s.
Now I don't know if they had the top rank (I'll ask), but since they got the prize you can assume they were definitely top 3 in the cohort, if not #1.
Two students from MHS got 50s in Health that year.

Go figure.
:O reallyyyyyy.... hm i guess that the exams really do matter no matter what school you're at :D
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Zebra on May 04, 2011, 08:42:56 pm
it happened to me. im a victim
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: wildareal on May 07, 2011, 09:24:22 pm
What about subjects which split units 3 and 4 up? Do you get a rank for Unit 3 and Unit 4?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on May 07, 2011, 09:52:31 pm
What about subjects which split units 3 and 4 up? Do you get a rank for Unit 3 and Unit 4?
Nah, there are only 3x GA's - Unit 3 Exam, Unit 4 Exam and Rank for the year
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: wildareal on May 07, 2011, 09:56:27 pm
What about subjects which split units 3 and 4 up? Do you get a rank for Unit 3 and Unit 4?
Nah, there are only 3x GA's - Unit 3 Exam, Unit 4 Exam and Rank for the year
What about for Latin or English?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: wildareal on May 07, 2011, 11:15:16 pm
Where there's 2 distinct units and one exam at the end of the year?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: jane1234 on May 08, 2011, 12:23:29 pm
Where there's 2 distinct units and one exam at the end of the year?
You will have a GA for U3 SACs and another GA for u4 SACs... well for english anyway...not sure about languages...
Go here for more info.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: iffets12345 on May 08, 2011, 02:38:41 pm
Probably answered already, but the initial question about SAC rankings changing is kind of true. My Literature teacher said that if someone got a high mark who probably won't do that well overall, she would still give them a B, not the A they deserve for that SAC. But that's probably because in literature SACs are so different to what the exam task asks you to do so it's not a good indication of exam performance. Also, it is kind of fair in certain cases. If someone was an anomaly and did really well in one SAC, but their past sacs had been up and down and then their future SAC mark was dodgy, would you really want to award them such a good mark that would let them CLIMB UP THE RANKINGS, to a position where their exam performance could easily affect your scores as well? I.e, rank 1 or 2? She was doing it to protect the cohort I think, cause a few years ago our rank 1 got 38 and the scores were terrible.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: wildareal on May 08, 2011, 05:18:21 pm
Probably answered already, but the initial question about SAC rankings changing is kind of true. My Literature teacher said that if someone got a high mark who probably won't do that well overall, she would still give them a B, not the A they deserve for that SAC. But that's probably because in literature SACs are so different to what the exam task asks you to do so it's not a good indication of exam performance. Also, it is kind of fair in certain cases. If someone was an anomaly and did really well in one SAC, but their past sacs had been up and down and then their future SAC mark was dodgy, would you really want to award them such a good mark that would let them CLIMB UP THE RANKINGS, to a position where their exam performance could easily affect your scores as well? I.e, rank 1 or 2? She was doing it to protect the cohort I think, cause a few years ago our rank 1 got 38 and the scores were terrible.
Well then clearly your rankings don't hold until the second unit.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: m@tty on May 08, 2011, 10:00:37 pm
You get a rank for unit 3 and a rank for unit 4

Teachers have to send marks for unit 3 several weeks into term 3. So, ranks are fixed before completing unit 4.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: HERculina on May 09, 2011, 07:48:25 pm
will the teacher take your exam mark/grade for unit 3 into consideration when they rank you and give it to VCAA?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on May 09, 2011, 08:37:56 pm
will the teacher take your exam mark/grade for unit 3 into consideration when they rank you and give it to VCAA?
They shouldn't, although I wouldn't be suprised if many did for the best chance at a high scoring student...
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: m@tty on May 10, 2011, 08:45:03 pm
Yeah they definitely shouldn't.. altering ranks is extremely unfair.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: gs on May 10, 2011, 09:07:45 pm
It's all a lottery really, out of your control. Do your best come SAC & exam time and the rest will take care of itself.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: iffets12345 on May 10, 2011, 10:28:09 pm
Probably answered already, but the initial question about SAC rankings changing is kind of true. My Literature teacher said that if someone got a high mark who probably won't do that well overall, she would still give them a B, not the A they deserve for that SAC. But that's probably because in literature SACs are so different to what the exam task asks you to do so it's not a good indication of exam performance. Also, it is kind of fair in certain cases. If someone was an anomaly and did really well in one SAC, but their past sacs had been up and down and then their future SAC mark was dodgy, would you really want to award them such a good mark that would let them CLIMB UP THE RANKINGS, to a position where their exam performance could easily affect your scores as well? I.e, rank 1 or 2? She was doing it to protect the cohort I think, cause a few years ago our rank 1 got 38 and the scores were terrible.
Well then clearly your rankings don't hold until the second unit.
What do you mean?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: wildareal on May 25, 2011, 08:37:21 pm
Does a super exam score increase the scaling of your sacs?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Jdog on May 25, 2011, 09:15:20 pm
 super exam scores of the entire cohort does, but not necesarily one individual
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: mrc93 on June 13, 2011, 09:51:52 pm
for indonesian SL i am coming 4th out of 6 but im on 46/50 for unit three and the 3 above me are all on 48/50 so the question is can i still get a good score while beating less than 50% of the cohort?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: horizon on June 25, 2011, 02:05:31 pm
About the percentages that each SAC is worth:
From what I've heard, the percentages don't really count towards your study score, BUT: are they taken into account when the ranks are determined, to reflect the weighting of each SAC?

Hope what I'm asking makes sense...
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: mmonn1906 on June 30, 2011, 02:06:07 pm
Hey guys, I'm only in year 10 but am very scared of VCE.
Okay that's besides the point.

What I want to know is, what does 'cohort' mean? And let's say I get an average of 90 on my exams in let's say physics but get 70s on my SACs, would it average out to around 83? Or do SACs barely count?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: tcg93 on June 30, 2011, 02:54:26 pm
Hey guys, I'm only in year 10 but am very scared of VCE.
Okay that's besides the point.

What I want to know is, what does 'cohort' mean? And let's say I get an average of 90 on my exams in let's say physics but get 70s on my SACs, would it average out to around 83? Or do SACs barely count?

A cohort is the group of students studying the subject at your school.

Your "rank" in the exam does not matter, it is your score that matters, whereas for SACs it is ranks that are important. So say if you get 3rd rank in SACs, then your SAC mark will be equivalent to the 3rd top mark obtained in your cohort in the exam. That's sort of how it works generally but things like the number of people in your cohort and all this other stuff comes into play too.

So to answer your question, your '70' in SACs depends on your cohort rank and is corresponded to the equivalent score for that rank in the cohort.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: mmonn1906 on June 30, 2011, 04:17:18 pm
Hey guys, I'm only in year 10 but am very scared of VCE.
Okay that's besides the point.

What I want to know is, what does 'cohort' mean? And let's say I get an average of 90 on my exams in let's say physics but get 70s on my SACs, would it average out to around 83? Or do SACs barely count?

A cohort is the group of students studying the subject at your school.

Your "rank" in the exam does not matter, it is your score that matters, whereas for SACs it is ranks that are important. So say if you get 3rd rank in SACs, then your SAC mark will be equivalent to the 3rd top mark obtained in your cohort in the exam. That's sort of how it works generally but things like the number of people in your cohort and all this other stuff comes into play too.

So to answer your question, your '70' in SACs depends on your cohort rank and is corresponded to the equivalent score for that rank in the cohort.


So, blitzing SACs is important?

Let's say my cohort gets 60 average and I get 90, what will happen?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: tcg93 on June 30, 2011, 04:30:40 pm
Hey guys, I'm only in year 10 but am very scared of VCE.
Okay that's besides the point.

What I want to know is, what does 'cohort' mean? And let's say I get an average of 90 on my exams in let's say physics but get 70s on my SACs, would it average out to around 83? Or do SACs barely count?

A cohort is the group of students studying the subject at your school.

Your "rank" in the exam does not matter, it is your score that matters, whereas for SACs it is ranks that are important. So say if you get 3rd rank in SACs, then your SAC mark will be equivalent to the 3rd top mark obtained in your cohort in the exam. That's sort of how it works generally but things like the number of people in your cohort and all this other stuff comes into play too.

So to answer your question, your '70' in SACs depends on your cohort rank and is corresponded to the equivalent score for that rank in the cohort.


So, blitzing SACs is important?

Let's say my cohort gets 60 average and I get 90, what will happen?

Well if 90 is the best score in your cohort then that is all you can basically do to ensure you can get the best SAC score you possibly can get
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: mmonn1906 on June 30, 2011, 09:31:28 pm
Hey guys, I'm only in year 10 but am very scared of VCE.
Okay that's besides the point.

What I want to know is, what does 'cohort' mean? And let's say I get an average of 90 on my exams in let's say physics but get 70s on my SACs, would it average out to around 83? Or do SACs barely count?

A cohort is the group of students studying the subject at your school.

Your "rank" in the exam does not matter, it is your score that matters, whereas for SACs it is ranks that are important. So say if you get 3rd rank in SACs, then your SAC mark will be equivalent to the 3rd top mark obtained in your cohort in the exam. That's sort of how it works generally but things like the number of people in your cohort and all this other stuff comes into play too.

So to answer your question, your '70' in SACs depends on your cohort rank and is corresponded to the equivalent score for that rank in the cohort.


So, blitzing SACs is important?

Let's say my cohort gets 60 average and I get 90, what will happen?

Well if 90 is the best score in your cohort then that is all you can basically do to ensure you can get the best SAC score you possibly can get

Let's say I get 90 and everyone else in my level get 70, would I get marked up or down?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on June 30, 2011, 09:33:33 pm
If you're rank 1, you are the benchmark for your school. Do well on the exam, and it'll look good, don't do well, and they'll think your SACs are pretty easy.

Ultimately, if you're rank 1, it's all up to you.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: mmonn1906 on June 30, 2011, 09:40:55 pm
If you're rank 1, you are the benchmark for your school. Do well on the exam, and it'll look good, don't do well, and they'll think your SACs are pretty easy.

Ultimately, if you're rank 1, it's all up to you.


Think they're easy? As in make them think that the SACs were a joke?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on June 30, 2011, 09:59:54 pm
If you're rank 1, you are the benchmark for your school. Do well on the exam, and it'll look good, don't do well, and they'll think your SACs are pretty easy.

Ultimately, if you're rank 1, it's all up to you.


Think they're easy? As in make them think that the SACs were a joke?
Well, think about it this way.

Say you were very smart, but in a very good school that has very hard SACs. You may be rank 1, but the SACs may be ridiculously hard and you'd only get 80%

If however, you weren't as smart is this other person, but went to a school that has easy SACs. You may get 95%. Should this person get a higher SS because their SACs are easier? No, this is where the the exam itself comes in.

It determines your full capabilities (along with your cohort), and hence determines the strength of the SACs. So yeah, in the end, exams are the biggest factor if you want to get what you genuinely deserve...

If you go back a couple of pages, I wrote a larger post about this.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: tcg93 on June 30, 2011, 10:36:00 pm
Hey guys, I'm only in year 10 but am very scared of VCE.
Okay that's besides the point.

What I want to know is, what does 'cohort' mean? And let's say I get an average of 90 on my exams in let's say physics but get 70s on my SACs, would it average out to around 83? Or do SACs barely count?

A cohort is the group of students studying the subject at your school.

Your "rank" in the exam does not matter, it is your score that matters, whereas for SACs it is ranks that are important. So say if you get 3rd rank in SACs, then your SAC mark will be equivalent to the 3rd top mark obtained in your cohort in the exam. That's sort of how it works generally but things like the number of people in your cohort and all this other stuff comes into play too.

So to answer your question, your '70' in SACs depends on your cohort rank and is corresponded to the equivalent score for that rank in the cohort.


So, blitzing SACs is important?

Let's say my cohort gets 60 average and I get 90, what will happen?

Well if 90 is the best score in your cohort then that is all you can basically do to ensure you can get the best SAC score you possibly can get

Let's say I get 90 and everyone else in my level get 70, would I get marked up or down?

Heres a quick and general example of a cohort with 3 students:

        SAC Score                   SAC Rank                Exam Score (Rank)            Standardised SAC Score            
A           71                              2                             98 (1)                                85 (i.e. takes the exam score of rank 2)
B           90                              1                             85 (2)                                98  (i.e. takes the exam score of rank 1)          
C           69                              3                             80 (3)                                80 (i.e. takes the exam score of rank 3, in case their own)


That is just a trivial example of how it works using 3 students. The real system is much more complex as there are larger cohorts, students with same SAC ranks, same exam scores, etc.

As you can see SAC scores do not matter, it is the ranks (or relative SAC scores) that matter. I could have used 40, 50, 30 for the SAC Scores for A, B and C respectively and it would have resulted in the same outcome due to the same ranks.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: mmonn1906 on June 30, 2011, 11:38:15 pm
Hey guys, I'm only in year 10 but am very scared of VCE.
Okay that's besides the point.

What I want to know is, what does 'cohort' mean? And let's say I get an average of 90 on my exams in let's say physics but get 70s on my SACs, would it average out to around 83? Or do SACs barely count?

A cohort is the group of students studying the subject at your school.

Your "rank" in the exam does not matter, it is your score that matters, whereas for SACs it is ranks that are important. So say if you get 3rd rank in SACs, then your SAC mark will be equivalent to the 3rd top mark obtained in your cohort in the exam. That's sort of how it works generally but things like the number of people in your cohort and all this other stuff comes into play too.

So to answer your question, your '70' in SACs depends on your cohort rank and is corresponded to the equivalent score for that rank in the cohort.


So, blitzing SACs is important?

Let's say my cohort gets 60 average and I get 90, what will happen?

Well if 90 is the best score in your cohort then that is all you can basically do to ensure you can get the best SAC score you possibly can get

Let's say I get 90 and everyone else in my level get 70, would I get marked up or down?

Heres a quick and general example of a cohort with 3 students:

        SAC Score                   SAC Rank                Exam Score (Rank)            Standardised SAC Score             
A           71                              2                             98 (1)                                85 (i.e. takes the exam score of rank 2)
B           90                              1                             85 (2)                                98  (i.e. takes the exam score of rank 1)         
C           69                              3                             80 (3)                                80 (i.e. takes the exam score of rank 3, in case their own)


That is just a trivial example of how it works using 3 students. The real system is much more complex as there are larger cohorts, students with same SAC ranks, same exam scores, etc.

As you can see SAC scores do not matter, it is the ranks (or relative SAC scores) that matter. I could have used 40, 50, 30 for the SAC Scores for A, B and C respectively and it would have resulted in the same outcome due to the same ranks.

Maybe I'm an idiot or is this just hard to understand?
I still don't quite get it.
Let me tell you what I think this means;

The average cohort SAC result is what you get, the exam is the same all around Vic therefore it shows true smartness?

So if you get straight 90s in SACs and 50 in exams, the SACs were obviously easy compaired to other schools.

Yes\No?
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: tcg93 on June 30, 2011, 11:51:13 pm
The average cohort SAC result is what you get
No, not really, if you look the example above, your final SAC mark is the exam score of the student who achieved the exam rank equivalent to your SAC rank

the exam is the same all around Vic therefore it shows true smartness
True, that is why SACs are standardised to the exams

So if you get straight 90s in SACs and 50 in exams, the SACs were obviously easy compaired to other schools.
Again, your SAC score does not matter, it is the SAC rank. 90 could be the lowest score in your cohort, which in that case, you could say the SACS were 'easy', on the other hand, 90 could be the highest score in your cohort, which implies that you individually found the SACs easier, but overall cohort performance will also depend on the distribution of other students' SAC scores.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: luken93 on June 30, 2011, 11:56:11 pm
The average cohort SAC result is what you get, the exam is the same all around Vic therefore it shows true smartness?
Not entirely, by doing SACs you are given a rank within your cohort. As a "reward", whoever from your cohort gets the highest exam mark, you will adopt this mark as your SAC mark, while also keeping your exam mark as your exam mark.

So if you get straight 90s in SACs and 50 in exams, the SACs were obviously easy compaired to other schools.
That is exactly right.
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: mmonn1906 on July 01, 2011, 12:49:26 am
Thank you guys so much for the help!
Very, very much appreciate it!
Title: Re: Ranks....
Post by: Zafaraaaa on July 21, 2011, 02:26:46 am
I didn't want to start a new topic so thought I'd just post here :) Anyway I saw this thing on the net about, like what's more important, actual sac percentage scores or ranking in class? and someone posted this:

"Your mark in SACS means ****, your ranking is what counts i.e how many people at your school you pwn in a given SAC. Though in the end they really don't mean anything, throughout the year in spesh I had a C+ or so average and was in the middle of the class. I ended up gunning the exam and topping the class with a raw 45"

is that possible? :-\ but then how do SAC scores on the results letter come up as grades (e.g. A+,A,B) sorry if this was asked before! =/
thanks