Class of 2011: ATAR and SS Discussion Thread

[Menang]

pi, it's all well and good to say "everyone can choose to do languages or spesh if they so wish" if you're good at languages or spesh. But the system, ideally, should really try to allow everyone the chance at full marks by choosing what they love, not what scales up most.

That's the key word here, and the fact is (see my 'premise') that the system is not ideal for everyone, and can never possibly be ideal for everyone. And as we all agreed earlier in this thread, the system (the scaling system) is inherently flawed, and therefore, it is up to us to make the best of it as it is very unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. All of my points revolve around that premise.

My post wasn't saying the system was "correct", it was just saying that there IS an opportunity for everyone to achieve the highest score with this system, and that if we want more people wo be given access choosing subjects that they "like" to achieve this score, then we'd need a system revamp. And this isn't going to happen.

So basically the tl;dr version of this entire thread would be "the VCE system is unfair, but suck it up"?

I don't think a revamp of VCE is really all that impossible... with the introduction of a national curriculum and all that, here's hoping that the new system will even up the playing field between all students, because, as we have just established, VCE currently discriminates against students of particular subjects.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[WhoTookMyUsername]

How can anyone be completely a humanities student (without science, language, math?) it would have to be

English
Literature
Revs
International
Studio ARts

or something ridiculous like that. Fact of the matter is most "humanities" students do a math or science or language and this receives the most unfair scaling of all (+5). So it's redundant to refer to humanities students as being disadvantaged as so few really are.

why is this ridiculous??

Because if you regard humanities students as those who don't do a math, science, or langauge, it leaves such a small subject number choice that it is ridiculous to say the "humanities" student is the only one disadvantaged. My whole point is it's much, much better to say non spesh/lang student - definitely not synonymous with the humanities student

[Menang]

How can anyone be completely a humanities student (without science, language, math?) it would have to be

English
Literature
Revs
International
Studio ARts

or something ridiculous like that. Fact of the matter is most "humanities" students do a math or science or language and this receives the most unfair scaling of all (+5). So it's redundant to refer to humanities students as being disadvantaged as so few really are.

why is this ridiculous??

Because if you regard humanities students as those who don't do a math, science, or langauge, it leaves such a small subject number choice that it is ridiculous to say the "humanities" student is the only one disadvantaged. My whole point is it's much, much better to say non spesh/lang student - definitely not synonymous with the humanities student

Fair enough, but the majority of non-spesh, non-lang students are students who take humanities subjects for most of their VCE course.

[WhoTookMyUsername]

How can anyone be completely a humanities student (without science, language, math?) it would have to be

English
Literature
Revs
International
Studio ARts

or something ridiculous like that. Fact of the matter is most "humanities" students do a math or science or language and this receives the most unfair scaling of all (+5). So it's redundant to refer to humanities students as being disadvantaged as so few really are.

why is this ridiculous??

Because if you regard humanities students as those who don't do a math, science, or langauge, it leaves such a small subject number choice that it is ridiculous to say the "humanities" student is the only one disadvantaged. My whole point is it's much, much better to say non spesh/lang student - definitely not synonymous with the humanities student

Fair enough, but the majority of non-spesh, non-lang students are students who take humanities subjects for most of their VCE course.

Eng, Physics, Chem, Methods, Bio, Further max 99.90
Eng Physics Chem Literature PE Music max 99.90
etc. etc. I would hesitate in saying the majority, but that's really beside my point

[pi]

So basically the tl;dr version of this entire thread would be "the VCE system is unfair, but suck it up"?

Actually, that's pretty much it Although is depends on your definition of unfair, and everyone will have their own view on what "unfair" means in relation to VCE depending on how they see the need to "play the system".

edit: you could easily replace the words 'the VCE system' with 'life', and suddenly we'd all accept that. Just something to consider

I don't think a revamp of VCE is really all that impossible... with the introduction of a national curriculum and all that, here's hoping that the new system will even up the playing field between all students, because, as we have just established, VCE currently discriminates against students of particular subjects.

Maybe, I'll guess we'll have to wait and see

[Russ]

Given that the study score is a ranking, for smaller studies less people will achieve a certain score, that's the way the system is structured currently. A subject like classical with 500 students having the same number of 50s as something with 1000 or 2000 students just wouldn't work.

Yes, correct, this is why the subject system is broken...

How do you know that student received full marks on everything? if a student receives full marks on all 3 GA there's no reason he shouldn't recieve a 50. For physics you basically need full marks for a 50 as well. Latin has a cohort of ~150 and there were people on 49 this year. A much smaller cohort than classical.

Spoke to the examiner. Another example is Renaissance (Menang can cover this in more depth). If you get 80/80 on the exam, you can end up with a 45-49 depending on SAC marks, whereas 100% on exams in bio/psych/maths etc. would guarantee a 50 (with comparable SAC scores).

But what alternative can you suggest Russ? There is no objective way that i can see of balancing the current problems in the system whilst still keeping a logical objective scaling system.

Why do we have to keep the scaling system? There's no reason other than $$$

Furthermore, with the system being inherently flawed, it is up to student to use to array of subjects at hand to their own advantage (ie. 'playing the system') to achieve whatever aims they want for their ATAR

The fact that this is true is an absolute shame, especially since the advice is typically "do what you love, not what scales".

I don't think a revamp of VCE is really all that impossible... with the introduction of a national curriculum and all that, here's hoping that the new system will even up the playing field between all students, because, as we have just established, VCE currently discriminates against students of particular subjects.

I agree, it's very possible. The metric by which we evaluate students could easily be adjusted and made more equitable, it's just too expensive and given the government's priorities, is never going to happen.

edit: you could easily replace the words 'the VCE system' with 'life', and suddenly we'd all accept that. Just something to consider

Life is something that we can't plausibly change. The high school education system is. And there's a difference between laboring within a system you dislike and accepting that system.

[bear1993]

So its been over two weeks. At first i was dissapointed with getting 77.45 but got over it. Now what pisses me off is people who seemed to have consumed alcohol every weekend. Barely seemed to care about school at all got a higher atar then me. and now i feel like a failure just because i cared.

[TonyEcon]

So its been over two weeks. At first i was dissapointed with getting 77.45 but got over it. Now what pisses me off is people who seemed to have consumed alcohol every weekend. Barely seemed to care about school at all got a higher atar then me. and now i feel like a failure just because i cared.

Just remember that you're in the top 23% of the state which is a feat in itself. The truth is, the people who try and have the determination to pursue their dreams are the ones who achieve what they want in life. Moreover, a lot of these people who claim they partied during VCE are just liars who are attempting to put on a facade which suggests they don't care about school when they truly do.

[Rhettski999]

Hey do you have to meticulously peruse over the stats on the VCAA website to find out how your ATAR relates to the percentage of the state you were in, or is there some table I can't find? Just interested to find out..

[pi]

Hey do you have to meticulously peruse over the stats on the VCAA website to find out how your ATAR relates to the percentage of the state you were in, or is there some table I can't find? Just interested to find out..

You'd be in the top 10.1% of the state (100-89.9)

[Rhettski999]

Thanks, thank god I didn't do any maths, as you can see they aren't exactly my forte

[Panicmode]

Thanks, thank god I didn't do any maths, as you can see they aren't exactly my forte

The ATAR is a percentile rank...

By definition, if you got an ATAR of 80 you are better than 80% of the state (meaning you are in the top 20%)