"No contraception, no dole". Thoughts?

[pi]

http://www.news.com.au/national/former-labor-minister-gary-johns-suggests-linking-the-dole-to-contraception/story-fncynjr2-1227169842999

Not original article, but yeah, thoughts?

[Fyrefly]

Terrible idea. Is seems racist, given the large number of indigenous Australians on welfare? Does "dole" mean disability pension too? And honestly, if someone wants kids then, "Oops, I accidentally forgot to take my pill everyday this month". I don't see how the government could police it without a serious invasion of privacy.

Personally I rarely make the mental step of considering the social ethics of a proposal that's too wildly impractical to enforce anyway, but I'm guessing there would be enormous controversy if you cut out all the practical details and asked the simple question: "Should people on welfare be allowed to have children?"

[M_BONG]

Full/original article here
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/no-contraception-no-dole/story-fn8v83qk-1227169545069

It's a fair idea in principle  but ridiculously stupid in practice.

Yes, Aborigines will be targeted and some say this is "racist" but it's only "racist" because Aborigines are the ones disproportionately born into  communities of crappy living standards and thus become one of the largest recipient of welfare. The only way to end this endless cycle, in my opinion, is to create sustainable communities where parents who can't afford to raise a child properly shouldn't have one. In principle, there is no automatic right to have a child - for instance, the state can take away your parenting rights if you are deemed to be a bad parent.

But in practice, when people have intercourse, they don't necessarily want a child. When you enforce "no contraceptions, no dole" in remote communities, it may open the floodgates for illegal or unreported births in rural communities (ie. it deters women from going to the doctors) so they can stay on the dole. What about the burden on that child? How are they to feel if they were the reasons why their parents can't receive the dole? Everything has an opportunity cost: no dole for families raising that child? Fine. No schooling for the child?


Bottom line is: when you means test welfare payments to the most vulnerable, you really need a strong reason/policy to support it *cough* #workforthedolefiasco. This isn't one, lol.

[slothpomba]

This is a horrible idea on many fronts. From those i know within the party and the wider progressive movement, he is a traitor and a disgrace. Thank God he left the party and i hope the door smacked him on the way out.

It's built on a mythology that doesn't reflect reality, another assault on the poor by the media and the upper class. I of course speak of the myth of the "dole bludger". It all springs fourth from this. There are these bloody filthy dole bludgers taking our money, lets make life for them as hard and nasty as possible. It ignores the true facts of the situation. The vast majority of people on the dole do not stay on it for a period exceeding a year. Considering the rate they pay you at, it's not really a pleasant life, its enough to survive but you'll find it hard to go to the movies and things like that. Small things that make life worth living for a person.

Let's not forget that the middle class and rich receive payments or concessions to a degree or another as well. Family tax benefit is available up to $100,000 earnings. No one would dream to force medication on the middle or upper class, you can't mythologise them as "dole bludgers" or useless human beings. Good luck taking on the upper classes with money and power.

If it was applied to everyone receiving government assistance, the majority middle-class parents of those on this board would be forced to take medication. If it was applied to government assistance again (youth allowance), many of the girls and women on this board would be forced to take medication. Women of this board, i ask you how this dilemma would make you feel, how the government forces its way into meddling with your reproductive system. Men of this board, i ask you how you feel if this was forced on your sister or mother, if they didn't comply they couldn't support themselves between jobs or during the hard times.

The government isn't being equal, it's not targeting those on welfare, it's targing the poor. As Fyrefly pointed out, it would be impossible to enforce. Furthermore, you create serious ethical concerns about covertly forcing people AND doctors to administer medication to people who might not actually want to take it. People aren't stupid, if they don't want to have a kid, the majority of people will take action towards that end. Forcing people will not stop those most likely to have unplanned pregnancies from having them, they just won't take the pill. There is a sexist element here as well, at least from the summary, there is no similar demand placed upon men.

You can cut people off to be vindictive and punish "dole bludgers" sure. However in the UK, people have starved to death under petty laws like this, under similar circumstances. They died a lonely, impoverished and totally unnecessary death ( Killed by benefits cuts: Starving soldier died 'as result of Iain Duncan Smith's welfare reform ).

[meganrobyn]

This is a horrible idea on many fronts. From those i know within the party and the wider progressive movement, he is a traitor and a disgrace. Thank God he left the party and i hope the door smacked him on the way out.

It's built on a mythology that doesn't reflect reality, another assault on the poor by the media and the upper class. I of course speak of the myth of the "dole bludger". It all springs fourth from this. There are these bloody filthy dole bludgers taking our money, lets make life for them as hard and nasty as possible. It ignores the true facts of the situation. The vast majority of people on the dole do not stay on it for a period exceeding a year. Considering the rate they pay you at, it's not really a pleasant life, its enough to survive but you'll find it hard to go to the movies and things like that. Small things that make life worth living for a person.

Let's not forget that the middle class and rich receive payments or concessions to a degree or another as well. Family tax benefit is available up to $100,000 earnings. No one would dream to force medication on the middle or upper class, you can't mythologise them as "dole bludgers" or useless human beings. Good luck taking on the upper classes with money and power.

If it was applied to everyone receiving government assistance, the majority middle-class parents of those on this board would be forced to take medication. If it was applied to government assistance again (youth allowance), many of the girls and women on this board would be forced to take medication. Women of this board, i ask you how this dilemma would make you feel, how the government forces its way into meddling with your reproductive system. Men of this board, i ask you how you feel if this was forced on your sister or mother, if they didn't comply they couldn't support themselves between jobs or during the hard times.

The government isn't being equal, it's not targeting those on welfare, it's targing the poor. As Fyrefly pointed out, it would be impossible to enforce. Furthermore, you create serious ethical concerns about covertly forcing people AND doctors to administer medication to people who might not actually want to take it. People aren't stupid, if they don't want to have a kid, the majority of people will take action towards that end. Forcing people will not stop those most likely to have unplanned pregnancies from having them, they just won't take the pill. There is a sexist element here as well, at least from the summary, there is no similar demand placed upon men.

You can cut people off to be vindictive and punish "dole bludgers" sure. However in the UK, people have starved to death under petty laws like this, under similar circumstances. They died a lonely, impoverished and totally unnecessary death ( Killed by benefits cuts: Starving soldier died 'as result of Iain Duncan Smith's welfare reform ).

Thank you.

[Professor Polonsky]

Further to kp's point about middle-class welfare --

What I find hilarious with this suggestion is that with the baby bonus and rising FTB as you have more kids, and all sorts of other payments and tax offsets and deductions schemes, the government (for quite a while) has been providing an incentive for middle class families to have more kids (to a point).

The 'dole', on the other hand, doesn't even rise with the more kids that you have (although certain other benefits do, in all likelihood).

We should be discouraging people who cannot afford kids to have them through strong family planning initiatives and so forth. Luckily, this is not such a big problem in Australia; and in the areas that it is, more positive work is needed rather than leaving the most vulnerable out to fend for themselves (and their young kids!)

And this is completely ignoring the unenforceability of this.