Do we need an ATAR?

[geminii]

And wouldn't a motivation to learn be beneficial at university?

Yes, of course motivation is important in university. But what motivates people? Their grades, the outcome at the end of the day. What they earn from their efforts. By not letting anyone know their ATARs, we are teaching people that grades don't matter, and that trying hard and enjoying learning is enough. Although this would be ideal it just wouldn't be practical. I understand why you would want to do this but it just simply wouldn't work.

I'm just questioning why we are, because we really shouldn't be.

That's a good question. Perhaps the answer is that at the end of the day, people want to see where their efforts went. They want to see how well they did (or in some cases, how well they did not do). If people cannot see their pay for trying so hard, there simply isn't motivation, or anything to work towards. I know that what's motivating me is my ATAR goal. If I knew I would never find out, I would care even less about what I got, or the whole learning process, because I wouldn't see the results of my hard work.

[Peanut Butter]

I don't think a "desire to learn" comes from VCE.

We are learning a set curriculum. We are being tested and examined on a certain criteria, certain questions, certain topics. We are not exactly learning - we are studying (although these do work hand in hand).

A desire to learn should stem from an individuals curiosity. They spend the time researching and learning things that they are not taught. The complete opposite of the idea of VCE.

An ATAR is an indication of how well you have learnt certain topics relating to certain subjects in comparison to others. It does not reflect someone's passion for learning, because that is not the aim. It is used to show who has the capability of doing what course at a university. Eliminating it would be pointless. No ATAR would just mean that students would have to sit some other standard test/exam in order for universities to distinguish which students are the best (and who work the hardest).

[hebete11]

Love your definition of society, however the voices that glorify high ATARs are incredibly loud. You see billboards up in front of schools that boast of their high achieving students, and constant remarks on social media about 'stupid people' getting 'bad ATARs'.
And what you're saying is absolutely true. There is no way to quantify wisdom, intelligence or effort. However that doesn't mean we can't promote it over a mark. And I understand your argument about subjectivism. However a student who perseveres and struggles through school can be, at times, more inspiring than one who doesn't struggle as much and can get a good mark. This is of course subjective, and there is no way we can 'glorify' these students. But we can still encourage them to learn for the sake of learning, rather than for a number that everyone around seems so undecided as to whether it means nothing or everything. The only purpose of an ATAR is to get into uni, while school is meant to teach you many things. When entering any field of work, wouldn't an employee who is competent and keen to work be preferable over one who is simply competent?

People would still be limited to their uni courses through the work they put in, but you're right. Wouldn't it be nice though if we could appreciate our efforts through our acquired knowledge and understanding of the world. But yeah, you are right. ATARs are a nice motivation, which helps everyone study better, and we also like objective numbers and letters to reflect our efforts rather than unquantifiable 'wisdom'. It would never work and everyone would lose motivation. It's just a thought

Yeah, VCE isn't really a place you can learn for enjoyment. I guess that comes more at university if you have the motivation to do an Honours or PhD course. I just wish VCE could be more about learning, rather than set curriculums and scores.

[dankfrank420]

I sorta see it as the same motivation for lots of people in high paying degrees.

Do we need doctors/dentists/engineers/lawyers/investment bankers etc? Absolutely. However, I doubt that all the dentists go into dentistry with a burning passion to stare at teeth or all investment bankers enjoy 80 hr weeks staring a computer screen. The underlying motivation is money, not the act of doing the job itself.

Same thing with the ATAR. Lots of people do enjoy learning for learning sake, but lots of others also want to achieve a high mark and use this to push through stuff they might not necessarily enjoy.

If the objective result is the same - we get the dentists/doctors/engineers/lawyers we need, then what is the harm in prioritising results?

[hebete11]

I agree with you entirely there, and I feel it's wrong that a lot of people are stuck in careers they don't enjoy because they're held back by the money. Because there's no point having excess money if you spend 50% of your life in misery. Lots of doctors and dentists, however, are genuinely interested in their field and want to help people. Of course the money is a small incentive. But some of them legitimately really enjoy their job, and they're the doctors and dentists I'd want to see if I'm sick. And so the same works for ATARs. Don't we want to promote ideals about learning, by - not rewarding people who do what they want to do because they love it - but simply not caring about marks and valuing the ATAR so highly at high school, when no one will even care two weeks into university. Ideals that encourage students just to learn...just because it will help them in their career and/or they simply enjoy it and want to know.

[Maz]

I agree with a lot of things people have said above; i kinda thinking haveing one number that i can recite to myself at a time when i dont really want to study is slightly more motivation than my want to learn - at this point. Dont get me wrong, after like 4 years of highscool, i now actually enjoy studying and learning new things...or more than your average person does. Also the time period of the year...like i have to learn this in a set time frame...when u just hve the 'will and want to learn' thing in play....i have a feeling the actual learning process would be slower....people would always think that i can always study/learn tomorrow. And plus i think the number gives some measure of accountability. Plus i dont think its fair to those who do try that hard...seeing that number is kinda their reward isnt it? So is the uni offer but the ATAR is a further reward distinguishing those at the top top who still would have gotton into the same uni course as someone who was say 2 points down them (like a 97, 98 and 99-even less as well, im just saying for the 1-2 point difference example) 😄

[hebete11]

Yeah, people always need a sense of objectivity. The ATAR isn't even objective. It's the closest we'll get to it though, and I guess that's why this would never work